symphonicpoet
Moderator
I started a minor derailment in angrygrifin's showroom thread, and I didn't really want to set the thing completely in the ballast so let's move it here.
The background: I love classic Citadel miniatures. I thoroughly enjoyed much of the world-building from the RT days. I really really loved the "make it your own" attitude. But the rules? They were okay when I was fifteen, but leave a bit to be desired now. There's a lot of things that could maybe be improved, but which still contribute to the sense of fun in some way or another like the ten thousand crazed weapons and their diverse effects. But there's one thing I think really can just be chucked in the bin with no loss: the unit activation. The classic "I go, you go" system can leave one side rather disengaged for quite a long time, especially in slower games with lots of units. And it can seem a bit capricious, since so much depends so heavily on who wins the initiative roll.
But there are other ways to do it. Here's a few I've found and, to differing extents, used with the citizens of my far away space frontier. I feel like there's a few different common ones and one or two that are more novel.
Quite a lot of games have players activating units in alternation: I move a squad, you move a squad, and so forth until all squads have moved. Stargrunt II works something like that, as I recall. And it's pretty common in historicals. In the simplest version it's typical that the player with the most units moves first. This is a bit arbitrary, but it works all right and makes for decent engagement, since no player is usually waiting that long to do something. It can be paired with simultaneous fire, where everybody attacks, but the damage doesn't take effect until the end of the turn, though that's not strictly necessary. One good exception might be for units who are placed on overwatch, where they fire during a movement phase (sacrificing their own movement to do so.) In that case, the damage might take place immediately leaving the affected unit no chance to respond.
Alternately, you might have some kind of initiative system where units with a higher initiative are able to act first, or hold their action to see what the opponent will do. This is a bit more like the role playing game solution to combat, but maybe by squad rather than character. In this kind of system damage generally wouldn't be simultaneous, so holding an action is a risk. (Though that's not quite universal. It depends on how important position is. Red Sun Blue Sky, a WWII aerial combat game, has movement like this since positioning is so critical, but damage is still simultaneous. In this case higher initiative aircraft always move later so as to better position themselves relative to the unfortunate early movers.)
I'd say those two are the most common systems. More common, even, than GW's. But there are a few novel alternatives that have popped up in newer games.
Bolt Action, a WWII skirmish game, uses a kind of radomoized activation where a number of visually distinct, but otherwise identical tokens equal to all the units in the game, plus one special "joker" are placed in a bag or cup and drawn blind. The tokens correspond to the various players, save for the joker. When a player's token is drawn that player can activate a unit of their choice. Fire is most generally not simultaneous in this kind of game, allowing early units to do damage before their enemies can respond. The "joker" ends the turn, and any units which have so far not moved are then unable to do so, giving players a strong incentive to take care of important actions early, as it becomes more and more likely the turn will end the more units have activated. It can sound a bit random at first, but it works out rather nicely.
Another variation on this is a card driven mechanic where each player is simply dealt a series of "initiatives" to use as they please, and everyone uses what's in their hand until all cards have been played. The "Fistful" series from Wiley Games works like this. The Ace of Spades goes first and then you simply go through cards in order. Your hand size corresponds to the number of units that you have, again giving something of an advantage to the larger force. (You're more likely to draw a high card if you have six units than if you have one.)
Lastly, Pulp Alley uses a quite novel approach where you get the initiative by accomplishing objectives or winning fights of different sorts and retain it until such time as an opposing player successfully does something equally impressive. And the player with the initiative simply decides what player goes next based on their reading of the situation. You really need to get to that guard tower before the other guy? You go first. You want the opportunity to ambush them? Make them go first. Damage isn't precisely simultaneous in Pulp Alley, but it's a heroic skirmish sort of operation, and almost no attack is without risk since your target always gets to respond somehow. (And that part is simultaneous.) You can pick a target that can't shoot back, but if they are able to shoot back there's not really any way to stop them from doing so. It's a remarkably novel system and for small action movie style skirmishes I really quite like it.
Anyway, all of these can probably be paired with GW systems to give a game a surprisingly GW feel, while fixing some of those I go you go frustrations. I've used the Bolt Action style activation draw to good effect and I quite like it with GW games. You can make things a bit more "crunchy" with things like suppressing fire affecting movement. Or you can make them more cinematic with heroes who can ignore movement penalties and psychological effects. Lots of good options out there.
The background: I love classic Citadel miniatures. I thoroughly enjoyed much of the world-building from the RT days. I really really loved the "make it your own" attitude. But the rules? They were okay when I was fifteen, but leave a bit to be desired now. There's a lot of things that could maybe be improved, but which still contribute to the sense of fun in some way or another like the ten thousand crazed weapons and their diverse effects. But there's one thing I think really can just be chucked in the bin with no loss: the unit activation. The classic "I go, you go" system can leave one side rather disengaged for quite a long time, especially in slower games with lots of units. And it can seem a bit capricious, since so much depends so heavily on who wins the initiative roll.
But there are other ways to do it. Here's a few I've found and, to differing extents, used with the citizens of my far away space frontier. I feel like there's a few different common ones and one or two that are more novel.
Quite a lot of games have players activating units in alternation: I move a squad, you move a squad, and so forth until all squads have moved. Stargrunt II works something like that, as I recall. And it's pretty common in historicals. In the simplest version it's typical that the player with the most units moves first. This is a bit arbitrary, but it works all right and makes for decent engagement, since no player is usually waiting that long to do something. It can be paired with simultaneous fire, where everybody attacks, but the damage doesn't take effect until the end of the turn, though that's not strictly necessary. One good exception might be for units who are placed on overwatch, where they fire during a movement phase (sacrificing their own movement to do so.) In that case, the damage might take place immediately leaving the affected unit no chance to respond.
Alternately, you might have some kind of initiative system where units with a higher initiative are able to act first, or hold their action to see what the opponent will do. This is a bit more like the role playing game solution to combat, but maybe by squad rather than character. In this kind of system damage generally wouldn't be simultaneous, so holding an action is a risk. (Though that's not quite universal. It depends on how important position is. Red Sun Blue Sky, a WWII aerial combat game, has movement like this since positioning is so critical, but damage is still simultaneous. In this case higher initiative aircraft always move later so as to better position themselves relative to the unfortunate early movers.)
I'd say those two are the most common systems. More common, even, than GW's. But there are a few novel alternatives that have popped up in newer games.
Bolt Action, a WWII skirmish game, uses a kind of radomoized activation where a number of visually distinct, but otherwise identical tokens equal to all the units in the game, plus one special "joker" are placed in a bag or cup and drawn blind. The tokens correspond to the various players, save for the joker. When a player's token is drawn that player can activate a unit of their choice. Fire is most generally not simultaneous in this kind of game, allowing early units to do damage before their enemies can respond. The "joker" ends the turn, and any units which have so far not moved are then unable to do so, giving players a strong incentive to take care of important actions early, as it becomes more and more likely the turn will end the more units have activated. It can sound a bit random at first, but it works out rather nicely.
Another variation on this is a card driven mechanic where each player is simply dealt a series of "initiatives" to use as they please, and everyone uses what's in their hand until all cards have been played. The "Fistful" series from Wiley Games works like this. The Ace of Spades goes first and then you simply go through cards in order. Your hand size corresponds to the number of units that you have, again giving something of an advantage to the larger force. (You're more likely to draw a high card if you have six units than if you have one.)
Lastly, Pulp Alley uses a quite novel approach where you get the initiative by accomplishing objectives or winning fights of different sorts and retain it until such time as an opposing player successfully does something equally impressive. And the player with the initiative simply decides what player goes next based on their reading of the situation. You really need to get to that guard tower before the other guy? You go first. You want the opportunity to ambush them? Make them go first. Damage isn't precisely simultaneous in Pulp Alley, but it's a heroic skirmish sort of operation, and almost no attack is without risk since your target always gets to respond somehow. (And that part is simultaneous.) You can pick a target that can't shoot back, but if they are able to shoot back there's not really any way to stop them from doing so. It's a remarkably novel system and for small action movie style skirmishes I really quite like it.
Anyway, all of these can probably be paired with GW systems to give a game a surprisingly GW feel, while fixing some of those I go you go frustrations. I've used the Bolt Action style activation draw to good effect and I quite like it with GW games. You can make things a bit more "crunchy" with things like suppressing fire affecting movement. Or you can make them more cinematic with heroes who can ignore movement penalties and psychological effects. Lots of good options out there.
