3rd edition rulebook vs Armies book points cost question

[Tullaris]

Kinda wondering. Would it be ethical to create a rulebook based army to fight a Warhammer Armies generated army? And if so, would you go strictly by the rulebook. Or use the changes given in the warhammer armies book. Like lower cost for elites and character equipment?

I'm making an Averland army and would like more warmachines such as mortars etc, which are not included in the Warhammer Armies list. I would also like a halfling wizard just for flavour.
I figured the easier way would be to just create the army using the rulebook, but I'm not sure if the points adjustments given in Warhammer Armies were meant to substitute the rulebook or if they were made specifically for the Warhammer Armies book, seeing how it already had restrictions on units to "balance" things out.

 

[ManicMan]

page 4 of the Armies book:
"Warhammer games can be approached with varying degrees of strictness. The 'purist' approach is to use the Army Lists as they stand, with no alteration, and to use the rules for scenery, deployment and the like as given in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Alternatively, the playeers may decide to allow a certain amount of leeway ('if you let me use an extra level 25 Hero, I'll let you use your homemade Orc Ornithopter'). " ... "Other mutually acceptable modifications can be introduced in this way. Players could even use troops or machines they have devised themselves, so long as all concerned are in agreement".

so the whole 'ethical' question is kinda moot ^_^
If you wanted to SPECIALLY go for Battle rulebook vs Armies rulebook, i would use ONLY what is in the Battle list and there prices for that side, and likewise with the Armies. Due to the price adjustments to help balance (in their words) this would probebly give the Armies army more models on the table.

 

[Zhu Bajie]

The Warhammer Armies lists are built more around defining play-style and world-building than they are about determining effectiveness.

In terms of boots on the ground - in general 3rd massively overestimates the value of characters - as if a single model with a human level 5 hero statline has the same effectiveness as 6 human fighters. It introduces economic ideas of scarcity (heroes are special / important / rare so must cost more to limit them) into army construction rather than trying to purely model combat effectiveness, which is where 2nds point system started.

For points to mean anything, then the forces on table need to be calculated using the same system. By all means build an army around the WHA lists, add in elements from core rules, but if you want to compare the comparative effectiveness of two armies then calculate both using the same system - if Armies doesn't have the flexibility to describe the forces, use the core 3E, if core 3E doesn't have the flexibility, use 2nd. Or just use 2e as it's going to more accurately reflect the weights, and let you know if the scenario is overly deterministic.

Beyond a wargame design theory discussion, I don't think anyone you ever play 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle with will be all that bothered, and just have fun playing against a characterful army.

 

[Tullaris]

page 4 of the Armies book:
"Warhammer games can be approached with varying degrees of strictness. The 'purist' approach is to use the Army Lists as they stand, with no alteration, and to use the rules for scenery, deployment and the like as given in the Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Alternatively, the playeers may decide to allow a certain amount of leeway ('if you let me use an extra level 25 Hero, I'll let you use your homemade Orc Ornithopter'). " ... "Other mutually acceptable modifications can be introduced in this way. Players could even use troops or machines they have devised themselves, so long as all concerned are in agreement".

so the whole 'ethical' question is kinda moot ^_^
If you wanted to SPECIALLY go for Battle rulebook vs Armies rulebook, i would use ONLY what is in the Battle list and there prices for that side, and likewise with the Armies. Due to the price adjustments to help balance (in their words) this would probebly give the Armies army more models on the table.

Thx, I kinda wish they'd made it clearer if the army book changes were intended as an update or just its own thing though.

 

[Tullaris]

The Warhammer Armies lists are built more around defining play-style and world-building than they are about determining effectiveness.

In terms of boots on the ground - in general 3rd massively overestimates the value of characters - as if a single model with a human level 5 hero statline has the same effectiveness as 6 human fighters. It introduces economic ideas of scarcity (heroes are special / important / rare so must cost more to limit them) into army construction rather than trying to purely model combat effectiveness, which is where 2nds point system started.

For points to mean anything, then the forces on table need to be calculated using the same system. By all means build an army around the WHA lists, add in elements from core rules, but if you want to compare the comparative effectiveness of two armies then calculate both using the same system - if Armies doesn't have the flexibility to describe the forces, use the core 3E, if core 3E doesn't have the flexibility, use 2nd. Or just use 2e as it's going to more accurately reflect the weights, and let you know if the scenario is overly deterministic.

Beyond a wargame design theory discussion, I don't think anyone you ever play 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Battle with will be all that bothered, and just have fun playing against a characterful army.

We're a tight group in my circle. Every game we play is one long ongoing campaign to shape the Warhammer world. So all the changes we make are for the spirit of the game rather than powergaming.
One of the reasons we went back to 3rd edition was for a more flexible way of building an army. All the "this amount of core/elite choices, only 4 chars etc that were introduced in the later editions felt like a stranglehold.
I could also have gone back to 4th or 5th edition, but I really fell in love with Realm of Chaos books. I also really like the mercenary system in 3rd.

 

[MichaelStockin]

We play 3rd and just use the Armies book as a guide, if the lore/fluff had it then we override the official lists.

We tend to use a lot of things from the 4th edition books and port them back, so my Empire has not only kannone, but mortars, organ guns, steam tanks etc..

 

[Black Shuck (Ben)]

3rd edition did get a new Empire army list. 147 to 152. Came about at the very end of 3rd but it's still 3rd. Has all the well known Empire stuff

 

[MichaelStockin]

Indeed, it was a strange cross over period. I recall at the time glancing at the rules and asking myself where did INT, CL and WP go.
Then upon reading it became clear.

For the stank and great cannon and what not which introduced new artillery rules, we ignored them and carried on using the rules from 3rd.
I am still not convinced which is more deadly, 3rd edition cannons or 4th.
Or 2nd for that matter.