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Padre

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Some of the perceived problems you highlighted never occurred to me. I must be an optimist after all. My own perception of the event was to have fun. I did do a WH 1st edition reenactment game trying to use only stuff I had in 1985, but that was just a one off experiment. And my and my mates got several rules wrong, though some could not be got right. But upcoming weekend I thought was not 'elitist'.

- I have only met a couple of the guys once at a show, and don't really blog so don't really know them from there.

- I am bringing an army of pygmies (non GW, from the 2000s I think, with later GW bits incorporated, and zombies/zombie pirates (later GW figures and non GW ones too)

- I do not know the 3rd ed rules. Although I suppose I did once they have got buried under too many subsequent editions rules. I intend to read through the 3rd ed rules and hope that'll be enough to awaken at least some (very) old memories. I intend to flick through the rules as and when. TBH I still struggle with 8th ed rules!

- The scenario I intend to run is about joining in with what ya got (though there is an attempt to have forces that fit storywise somehow in the jungle infested southern continents). Enter as and when, grab some loot, and try to escape with it.

Do these comments also reassure?
 

Orlygg

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Personally, the issues you describe are caused by the appalling culture that seems, to me anyway, surround tournament gaming of any sort. Obsessions with legality. having the 'correct' miniatures to play etc. tedious beyond belief. Sadly, this is the world that many GW inspired wargamers live in, and unless you were 'truly there man' in the 1980s you won't have a clear understanding on the mindset that Oldhammer seeks to promote (I know I am generalising here a bit).

For me, The Oldhammer Weekend is about having fun. Talking shop. Seeing other people's armies (classic 80s or not) and generally mixing with people who until now have just been words on a screen. Oh, and hopefully a beer or two! Perhaps, so many gamers depend on the formal restrictions on recent times and the free and easy nature of the old school is a bridge too far?
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I would totally echo the previous two comments. Having a laugh, meeting people who I've only "met" in forums, gawping at all the lead candy. It's the polar opposite of rigid, rules-driven formality. As my old buddy and mentor Patches O'Houlihan puts it:
 

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Zhu Bajie

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Well I was dithering and then decided not to, for completely different reasons, a conspiracy of lack of hobby funds and Inlaws and CAVE EVIL which accounts in part for the first.

Models
I think the archeogaming contingent is to blame for "I need a 2000pt 80s Citadel army to play", this was never really the intention, BUT on the other hand those wanting to see a wider diversity of miniatures need to get their fingers out and show them in an Oldhammer context.

I was planning on an:
*Alternative Armies Retained Knights squad for the RT game: http://www.alternative-armies.com/Retained_Knights.htm
*Mad Knight Runequest broo for the bulk of the Beastmen for the RoC game: http://www.madknight.co.uk/broo-c-275_319.html

Rules
I don't want to speak for Coop or Orlygg who are running the bring-and-battle games, but IMHO players do not need to know the rules, that's what the GM is for (no pressure guys!) So long as you've got an idea of the turn sequence, and what movement, weapon ranges and relative strengths are, and how to roll dice and read the tables on a playsheet, the rest is really down to the GM to make sure it runs smoothly, or however they like using the rulebooks as a guide. Thinking strategically, tactically and heroically, not trying to game the rules is what it's about.
 

lenihan

Moderator
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Well, as a newcomer to this here oldhammer thing, I don't find the whole thing intimidating at all, although I was very glad someone clarified that complete familiarity with old ed rules is not going to be essential! Obviously if people think that you have to know chapter and verse of 3rd ed to get in that will limit the crowd a bit...

I think the only thing I am finding a teeny bit intimidating is the standard of some of the painting I've seen on here! I've never been that good a painter, but I'm going to take it as inspiration to try and up my game for the occasion. I just don't want to drag down some potentially wonderful looking gaming tables!
 

weazil

Moderator
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Hi WP

Actually, I hadn't thought about the oldhammer scene as being intimidating, but I can see where your friends are coming from. It is a pity that the perception is one of elitism, and I suppose that most of the oldhammer scene is being driven by many of us primarily frothing over the earlier 'pre-modern GW' figures and general feeling.

I'm not sure much can be done about that now (in time for the event in August), but I do think its a good challenge to us as a community. Given that we've not run an event before, I don't mind too much, as I think 50% of this will be purely about putting real faces and names to avatars and allowing us to see in real life the armies we only see in pictures. In a way, it is an intimate gathering for a small sub-set of the wargaming community and perhaps for the first one, we should be a little exclusive - if for no other reason than to limit the damage if it all goes wrong :)

Ultimately, the entry barrier everyone needs to get over is the realisation that as a player, one is sick of the current tournament/rules pack driven style of play poisoning our hobby and wants to play a different sort of game. There isn't much we can do to help someone make the choice outside of what we're already doing - blogging about a different approach and trying to tell that story to as many people as possible. In your case (WP) you've run a few scenarios on your blog using current edition figures that still tell a fantastic story and draw a clear line between tournament play and narrative play. If that's not enough to encourage your friends, I'd suggest that they're not yet prepared to change the way they play.

As for knowledge of rules - one should fully expect to have the game be an exciting and otherwise arbitrary spread of rules from 3rd edition to 7th edition and from RT through to 5th. to be honest, as long as you've got the new (old?) turn sequence and the rules for magic/psychics down, you should be okay.
 

Thantsants

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I think the archeogaming contingent is to blame for "I need a 2000pt 80s Citadel army to play", this was never really the intention, BUT on the other hand those wanting to see a wider diversity of miniatures need to get their fingers out and show them in an Oldhammer context.

Guilty as charged M'lud! Good point though Zhu - my motivation is definitely the old minis but that isn't necessarily Oldhammer. Looks like Davey from the Marienburg Gazette will be bringing along a rather spiffy new model chaos army.

I'm currently reading and rereading the 2nd ed. rules so that it all goes smoothly, but I must admit I haven't done much GMing in the past. I'm looking for a nice relaxed atmosphere where we can all enjoy the Orc's Drift scenarios and have a bit of a laugh in the spirit of Oldhammer.

Thanks for posting this up Paul - hadn't realised this might be a problem. I wonder if a few blog posts of a similar nature on our respective blogs might dispel a few reservations folk have about coming down?
 
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I've encountered similar problems of understanding when it comes to narrative games while helping to run a Necromunda campaign over the last few months. Most of the players have sort of started to grasp the concept that the game isn't balanced (though we have tried to mitigate that through some house rules), and that its more about the ongoing storyline we created and the misadventures of the individual characters represented by the ganger miniatures.

It's hard to discourage players from instinctively aiming for the 'most efficient' setups or most cost effective weapons. And some of them still try to win at all costs, which isn't what narrative games are about!

I'm fully intending on coming to the very first Oldhammer weekend, and I'm trying my best to put together a small Khornate warband for the Realm of Chaos bring and battle game. But I'll also have a squad of my Crimson Fists marines for the RT game too. :)

I'm going to advertise the Oldhammer event on the forum my club uses and try and mention it as much as possible while I'm actually at the club. Most gamers at my club though play mostly current edition 40k and FB, with a smattering of other games like Dystopian Wars. So I don't expect much interest. I'll try anyway though. The guy I played my RT mission games with would almost certainly be interested, but he's sadly emigrating at the end of the month. :(
 

Harry

Moderator
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Warlord Paul":26ntcyi4 said:
Hi everybody.

I have been moved to write a few words about the Oldhammer weekend because I have found it surprisingly difficult to sell the idea to my gaming buddies. The main concerns seem to revolve around the perceived 'entry requirements'. Whether the people in question have had access to the online forum/blogging community or not it seems to be an automatic assumption with everyone I've spoken too that you would need to have a large, beautifully painted, 3rd edition army consisting only of period miniatures simply in order to 'qualify'. Another concern is not knowing the rules, while one person was put off by the relatively intimate number attendees (feeling like they would be gatecrashing somebody else's party). I have loads of people around me who should be all over this event and yet I will be travelling down the M1 on my lonesome.


I don't have large painted 3rd edition army .... I have a few Amazons, a few Norse, a half painted Chaos Warband and a Halfling Blood Bowl team. I don't know the rules .... not 2nd or 3rd edition, or Realm of Chaos ... have not played a game of 3rd edition since ... well, 3rd edition. :grin: Don't even know the rules to Blood Bowl that well. I don't know anyone else .... in fact the main reason I was going was to meet some like minded fellows.

I will happily play a game of Talisman with you ... so you won't be on your lonesome once you get here.
 

Erny

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

This is a difficult one because if I really examine my true wants on this I would have to admit I really do want to play a game with my collection of old toys against an opponent with another collection of old toys. That does put a barrier in the way for some, even if I offer the other side an army of my own toys. It then becomes my game and I'm letting you play. Truth be told as a first choice I'd rather play a narrative game of 6th all using old figures than a narrative game of 3rd using all modern figures. For me it has always been about the story and the look.

If it were an oldhammer week then I'd be more than happy to play any army at all, even an army of card counters. I'm not against modern miniatures and I'd certainly love to play as many people as possible there are just certain games I want to fit in first. And obviously larger communal games shouldn't be exclusively old models. As it is only a weekend, that will be over all too quickly I guess there will be an element of exclusivity about it. I'm not certain that is a terrible thing, as the movement grows more and more tastes will be catered for, we are a narrow church at the moment more by size than anything else we have broad horizons.
 

Harry

Moderator
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Well unless I have missed the point the weekend is for anyone enjoying playing a game using an older rule set with older minis ... and the only competitive attitude they need to bring is toward drinking. :grin:

I'm not even that bothered about playing ... I am honestly happy just to enjoy watching a narrative game unfold.

As to your questions wouldn't dream of turning down a game against anything metal. :grin:

Wouldn't question someone's right to be there ... no requirement to turn up with any miniatures at all to enjoy the the games and miniatures on the tables .... just don't try put any plastic on the table and expect to get out alive. :grin:

30-130 makes no difference BUT I would prefer it to be 10 people and a dog called Colin than have one idiot who missed the point of a game played for fun rather than to win. :grin:

Just my views ... don't speak for or represent the views of this forum or anyone else for that matter.
 

Skarsnik

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Harry":5rnyeiuz said:
Well unless I have missed the point the weekend is for anyone enjoying playing a game using an older rule set with older minis ... and the only competitive attitude they need to bring is toward drinking. :grin:

I'm not even that bothered about playing ... I am honestly happy just to enjoy watching a narrative game unfold.

As to your questions wouldn't dream of turning down a game against anything metal. :grin:

Wouldn't question someone's right to be there ... no requirement to turn up with any miniatures at all to enjoy the the games and miniatures on the tables .... just don't try put any plastic on the table and expect to get out alive. :grin:

30-130 makes no difference BUT I would prefer it to be 10 people and a dog called Colin than have one idiot who missed the point of a game played for fun rather than to win. :grin:

Just my views ... don't speak for or represent the views of this forum or anyone else for that matter.

I would agree with almost all of this. I haven't even booked myself in for any games, and I'm not sure I'll be bringing along any models. I just want a chance to hang out, meet fellow oldhammerers in person, have a beer, see some lovely old minis, and perhaps push a few soldiers around if someone is kind enough to let me.

The only thing that I differ on is the miniatures that people bring. In my mind oldhammer is a way of thinking about the game rather than a specific set of models. If someone rocked up with an awesome army made up of the latest plastic figures, but had a great backstory for the general and his troops and played the game in the right spirit, I'd welcome them in the same way as someone who had an army made up of 1980's lead.

For me oldhammer is about the attitude you bring rather than the models you bring.
 

Norse

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Harry":27ylbbpp said:
As to your questions wouldn't dream of turning down a game against anything metal. :grin:

Wouldn't question someone's right to be there ... no requirement to turn up with any miniatures at all to enjoy the the games and miniatures on the tables .... just don't try put any plastic on the table and expect to get out alive. :grin:

Well, at least I know who to avoid!
 

Padre

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I choose to think that what Harry means when he says don't expect to get out alive if you put plastic on the table is that he will give you a game against your plastic miniatures and try to kill them in battle. It's what wargaming is all about.

He does use a lot of ' :grin: 's which may well mean he is not serious. So, if he's joking, then perhaps I am wrong and he would actually play to lose thus allowing your little plastic men to get out alive?

I am now thinking way too hard about this. I'm going to bed to read Game of Thrones.
 

lenihan

Moderator
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Well I'm planning on bringing a mixture of 80s and mid 90s models, and if the recent vintage of the minis that I used to play 5th ed with means that people won't play with me then I'll just have to drink beer. How terrible for me!

But in all seriousness, after a while out of wargaming I'm keen to have the opportunity to play with the models of my childhood - mixed with some older treasures - and I hope that they will fit into the spirit of the day.
 

weazil

Moderator
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

I think we do need to be careful here, because its all well and fine to say we'd only play against old lead, but looking at the registration forms, its easy to see the armies that are (relatively) easy to get: Chaos, Orcs, Undead, Dwarves. For those of us holding out to play against a Bretonnian army, the most realistic option would be a later edition force, because most people have only recently realised they don't need to pay eBay prices for classic citadel sculpts. Likewise, you're more likely to see a Lizardman 'counts as' Slann army than you are to see an actual Slann army. All well and fine in principle to ask for old lead, but that will lock most of us out of possibly ever seeing certain games.

This is sort of what I was hoping the 'Looking for Game' thread would cover - in that place I was hoping players would state what they had and what they were looking for and I was hoping there that people would specify if they wouldn't want to see new miniatures (which I think is a reasonable thing to ask for).

It also poses a question about modern figures that have that 80s feel. Looking at the Retained Knights from Alternative Armies, for instance, I think they're a lot closer to what I think a Space Marine is than current Space Marines. Would I be rejected with this force because they're not 'true' 80s figures?

WP - I think you should bring your army and help people understand it isn't just about the figures. There will be enough 'pure' 80's on the day to satisfy (Orc's Drift, Forenrond's Last Stand). I'd rather people had armies on stand by in case unregistered players want to have a game or in case one of the participants in an arranged game doesn't arrive. I'd hate to have people come over from other countries to be left standing around because people feel their plastic moderns are considered unwelcome.

As a challenge to the community, I'd urge you to recall that lots of us are spending a lot of money to get to this thing - and ostensibly the objective is to play a game.

The only guaranteed method for having an opponent with the 'right' force is for one player to provide both forces. I've seen and heard offers of armies, so if you want to play but don't feel you're 'in', perhaps the answer is to put out a call and ask for one. Bear in mind, though - there is a lot of responsibility that comes with other peoples figures.
 

Orlygg

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

In my view, complaining about, or excluding, players with the 'wrong minis' at an Oldhammer event would be utter hypocrisy. Such a view reminds me of the attitude of a well known high street retailer! In time, members who share a particular view about how they want to approach a games, such as using figures contemporary to 3rd edition (like Erny and myself) and those who have more modern forces but who want to game in a less restrictive environment will be able to get together. Unless we organise meets, we cannot network and get to know each other.
 

Norse

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Orlygg: Here here!

Warlord Paul: To be fair it's only been a couple of posters who have indicated they might not play a game based on what figures another player is carting about.

Lenihan: I'll happily play with you using those models!

I'm hoping to have 2 armies ready to take up.

My Norse army has a mixture of modernish metals from different companies and plastic Reaper Bones Vola and Frostwyrm.

My Chaos Army has Grenadier Chaos Warriors, plastic Reaper Bones Sorceror, Hero and Jabberwocky and (possibly if they're painted in time) 90's plastic beastmen.

Now, if I'm actually going to find it difficult to find a game because of the figures I'm using, no matter how much work I put into the narrative side of these armies, then I will have to reconsider whether I bother to come up or not. It's not easy for me to afford to make it, and I'd have to think about whether I really want to go to an event where people are going to be like that. However, I do believe it's only one or two of the participants I might have this problem with and am happy to presume that most people will be fine with me fielding those armies. Feel free to disabuse me of this notion if I'm incorrect, I'd rather know before I put the effort in to get there!

For the record, I'm happy to oldhammer with anyone with any army. I can also understand if you'd *prefer* to play entirely with 80s lead.
 

Mutantdale

Member
Re: Making the Oldhammer weekend less intimidating.

Orlygg you hit the nail on the head for me..
I ditched playing modern fantasy and 40k because of the elitist it must be current and our own range only.. Seriously I thought oldhammer was better than that.
Anyone wants to play against me I don't care what minis you use plastic lead card or any company. I am more interested in the feel of the game. Yes I would prefer to use old lead myself but mainly because it is a childhood kick for me. I am finally getting the minis I could only look at in stores as my pocket money didn't stretch to more then a couple of blisters a week or a computer game.
I think a lot are forgetting the spirit of the game and the fact "this is NOT a tournament".. if you only want to play against old lead I don't see how you can be into oldhammer as that is clearly not the spirit of it at all..
Just my thoughts..

Dale
 
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