Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
Marines have better profiles than baseline humans, they are elite troops. But they aren't Ogryns in power armour they're still human, although more like Sardaukar or Mutoids than Stormtroopers. They aren't underpowered by their description at all, that's just backporting later expectations of teh awesum. They ain't teh awesum, they're "feral world" warriors and "city scum" who've undergone hideous surgery and mind control implants to make them better.
I'd say there are two types of marines:
1. The rulebook Marines - specially selected from toughest psychopaths of the galaxy - from warriors of ultra-violent societies. These are people who could already be considered champions or heroes that were then enhanced and rigorously trained.

2. The WD98 Marines are children turned into monsters and rigorously trained. These should be treated like multi-wound monsters like Tyranid warriors instead of normal human beings and also have super-human skills.

One thing that is important is that I don't think human talent should allow people to exceed super-human. That is even a human major hero should still be worse than a baseline Space Marine unless they are somehow trans-human themselves.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
And yeah, Space Marines are 40ks version of a minimal, elite fighting force, most of the fighting by humans throughout the cosmos is done by the Army or equivalent.
Only in defence, though. Until Imperial Guard gets introduced.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
The Empire isn't a great galaxy conquesting force .
So?

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
For goodness sake their elite transport is an upturned skip with a tractor stuck under it,
Original Rhino and Land Raiders weren't elite transports. Also, when Rhino and Predator were introduced, they were very high-tech with auto-systems everywhere, ejector seats and power fields.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
and their weapon of choice is a modified rivet gun,
Never heard anything about this.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
Space Marines don't go around saving worlds from hostile aliens, they go around harassing punks for doing graffiti.
Armed muscular punks, which probably are mercenaries or bandits. Also, the picture is about incursions into the Eye of Terror. Space Marines probably pacify these worlds instead of Imperial Army since they are the mobile forces of the Imperium and Imperial Army isn't.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
A gretchin with a bow and arrow can kill a space marine at 40 paces.
Only because of poor game mechanics.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
The whole Imperium is complete and utter rubbish, not a bunch of star-travelling crypto-fascist religio-military Übermensch for munchkins. It's a joke, or at least it used to be.
No.

Zhu Bajie":154kniew said:
AranaszarSzuur":154kniew said:
Just imagine Battle of the Farm with fluff marines. How many orks there would have to be for 16 heroic marines? 50? 75?

They are already 'fluff' marines and completely walk over the orks whilst being outnumbered, Battle at the Farm isn't balanced. Just as they are the orks would need 40 troops to even out the odds.
I meant for similar results. Orks simply suck. Their inter-stellar forces aren't trained up to inter-stellar elite standards and are poorly armoured. There's no wonder any well-trained armoured force would wipe the floor with them. Still doesn't show any super-human performance by marines. Nothing an ordinary un-enchanced human champion couldn't do.
 

Asslessman

Member
Erny":344mwxxt said:
Don't over think the fluff. The much loved nonsense they came up with about all the various organs incerted into the marines bodies, the fusing of the ribcage that would make breathing impossible, the way they think genes work. It's all Saturday morning action cartoon standard bollocks. But it doesn't matter. This isn't hard science fiction that obeys any sort of currently held scientific laws or even theories it's fun ill thought out sillyness, it's daft space fantasy. Enjoy it at that level and forget how many marines are in a chapter or if human champions should be better or worse then a standard marine. The answer is, depends on whats cool at the time.

100% this
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
AranaszarSzuur":2djx6rcb said:
Zhu Bajie":2djx6rcb said:
The whole Imperium is complete and utter rubbish, not a bunch of star-travelling crypto-fascist religio-military Übermensch for munchkins. It's a joke, or at least it used to be.
No.

Well, there you go. The whole idea of Space Marines as super-heroes not being born out by the rules isn't because the rules suck, it's because it's basically the wrong idea. Space Marines just aren't supposed to be as hard as a Hero, and nothing in the background suggests they should be, they're just 'a bit better' than humans, the best humans have to offer. They are vulnerable to grechin with a pointy stick because thats how the rogue trader universe actually works, not because of some imaginary disconnect between the background and the rules.

I mean, come on, powered armour is just medieval plate with a little jetpack so it's not so heavy, and so doesn't have encumbrance, wtih some air filters and commslinks, it's not really super-amazing high tech armour like a force-field or whatever, it's basically junk (but still better junk than most other humans have).

AranaszarSzuur":2djx6rcb said:
Still doesn't show any super-human performance by marines. Nothing an ordinary un-enchanced human champion couldn't do.

That's because Space Marines aren't supposed to be super human in Rogue Trader, they're just enhanced. Champions are just better versions of whatever. If you want to stat up an entire Chapter of Marines as Major Heroes, just go ahead and do that, pay the points and play them as you like, no worries.
 
Zhu Bajie":3kis0bxg said:
Well, there you go. The whole idea of Space Marines as super-heroes not being born out by the rules isn't because the rules suck, it's because it's basically the wrong idea. Space Marines just aren't supposed to be as hard as a Hero, and nothing in the background suggests they are.
It's the opposite. There's nothing in the background that suggests that a Hero should be as hard as a baseline Space Marine.

Another thing is that the personality stats in Rogue Trader are completely out of whack. In Codex Imperial Guard from 2009 even major heroes like Comissair Yarrick have more toned-down stats.

From what I understand, Confrontation is supposed to be the system that reflects the reality of Wh40k. Hmm... looking at the armour penetration tables, it seems that Ian Watson has failed to do his home work.
Or the tables are stupid. I mean Terminator armour is supposed to be used for frontal assaults but 45% of bolt-gun hits will penetrate it.

Zhu Bajie":3kis0bxg said:
I mean, come on, powered armour is medieval plate with a little jetpack so it's not so heavy, and so doesn't have encumbrance, it's not super-amazing high tech armour like a force-field or whatever, it's basically junk (but still better junk than most other humans have).
It's not a medieval plate. It's made of mixture of absorptive material and impact-reactive plastic, probably equivalent to carapace armour. It's also sealed, powered so the wearer doesn't experience weight and equipped with auto-senses.

Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?
 
Zhu Bajie":2iu1eynw said:
AranaszarSzuur":2iu1eynw said:
Still doesn't show any super-human performance by marines. Nothing an ordinary un-enchanced human champion couldn't do.

That's because Space Marines aren't supposed to be super human in Rogue Trader, they're just enhanced. Champions are just better versions of whatever. If you want to stat up an entire Chapter of Marines as Major Heroes, just go ahead and do that, pay the points and play them as you like, no worries.
When you enhance a human, you get super-human.
 
AranaszarSzuur":2gzfch5h said:
Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?

It was supposed to be a friendly query about toy soldiers, and now you're calling him a liar?
Jesus, I'm sorry I brought it up, forget I asked in the first place.....
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Gallowglacht":1knrc0yb said:
AranaszarSzuur":1knrc0yb said:
Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?

It was supposed to be a friendly query about toy soldiers, and now you're calling him a liar?
Jesus, I'm sorry I brought it up, forget I asked in the first place.....

Hey, Aranaszaur is a good guy, don't take offence at his abrasive mannerisms, it's just his way.

AranaszarSzuur":1knrc0yb said:
Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?

You seem to be the one claiming the Imperium is somehow supposed to humanity at the height of its technological and military power, rather than a crumbling disjointed wreck that's way best it's prime, and basically rubbish. Read the Timeline of the Imperium and the notes on technology.

So yeah. Power armour is crappy medeival plate, with movement penalties taken out, yes, a space-marine would get his arse handed to him on a plate by a heroic level character, and offed by a goblin with a pointy stick, the Eldar are superior to humanity in every way. The background completely supports this. That is the essence of Rogue Trader.

Lets have a look at the front cover, the piece that sets the scene for the Rogue Trader experience:

rogue-trader-cover-art-warhammer-40k.jpg


What do we see? Dead space marines, lots of dead Space Marines. Space Marines getting their arses kicked. Space Marines with bleeding heads.See that guy that's getting dramatically shot in the chest? You can see the shadowy figure of a space orc what did shoot him? And what's that coming over the hill? Some mega-monster robots. About to totally annihilate them. Why? Because they ain't fearsome super-heroes.

tumblr_lquw84fK7P1r1g40zo1_500.jpg


Looks to me like this Space Marine can only kill a goblin at point blank range. Goblin couldn't hit an elephant, let alone a Space Marine. This is entirely consistent wiv da roolz. What did he do, creep up behind him with his super-stealthy clanking space armour? lol!

165973_md-Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Retro%20Reivew,%20Retro%20Review,%20Rogue%20Trader,%20Sister%20Sin.jpg

What's that? A Space Marine being offed by some unique Heroic level character? or just a run of the mill Adeptus Sororitas? Look, he can't even hit her from 2 foot away. Shurely shome mishtake! No. This is what Rogue Trader is all about.

tumblr_lrconuhmN41r1g40zo1_400.jpg


It might be fun to go through the whole of Rogue Trader and tally up the number of images of space marines winning vs. the number of them getting ripped to shreds by enemy fire. Yes, these are the best humanity has, but they are the fail.

The awesome ultimate space heroes you seem to be describing is better represented by something like this:

Warhammer_40000_2nd_edition.jpg


What do we see? Fist-pumping space dudes wading though a load of orcs completely untouched. Yeah WE ROCK! Look at our super-shiney giant-size space tech! We are TEH HEROES! IMHO whole idea that a Space Marine should be Teh Awesum is summed up right there. Nothing to do with the background, presentation and rules of marines in Rogue Trader.
 
Asslessman":1un8rbxg said:
Erny":1un8rbxg said:
Don't over think the fluff. The much loved nonsense they came up with about all the various organs incerted into the marines bodies, the fusing of the ribcage that would make breathing impossible, the way they think genes work. It's all Saturday morning action cartoon standard bollocks. But it doesn't matter. This isn't hard science fiction that obeys any sort of currently held scientific laws or even theories it's fun ill thought out sillyness, it's daft space fantasy. Enjoy it at that level and forget how many marines are in a chapter or if human champions should be better or worse then a standard marine. The answer is, depends on whats cool at the time.

100% this

^^ 100% that
 
Zhu Bajie":vfhwgium said:
AranaszarSzuur":vfhwgium said:
Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?

You seem to be the one claiming the Imperium is somehow supposed to humanity at the height of its technological and military power, rather than a crumbling disjointed wreck that's way best it's prime, and basically rubbish. Read the Timeline of the Imperium and the notes on technology.

So yeah. Power armour is crappy medeival plate, with movement penalties taken out, yes, a space-marine would get his arse handed to him on a plate by a heroic level character, and offed by a goblin with a pointy stick, the Eldar are superior to humanity in every way. The background completely supports this. That is the essence of Rogue Trader.
Power Armour isn't a medieval plate. Plate armour is a medieval plate, but possibly made with superior metals that make it an equivalent of a more advanced Mesh Armour. Power Armour is an equivalent of Carapace Armour.

There's a classification of armour in the rulebook:
Plate and Chain armour are classified as Primitive, while Carapace, Flak, Mesh and Powered armour are classified as Modern.

I've read the time-line of the Imperium and notes on technology. The Imperium is crumbling and superstitious but its technology is still way beyond stuff we have. We don't have power sources for lasguns and lascannons and power armour, we don't have power fields, power weapons, we don't have star ships, we even don't have system space ships, we don't have anti-gravity, we don't have lots of technologies they have.

The fall of technology in Imperium is mainly about losing the ability to understand and invent new technology. In Rogue Trader we don't even have the idea of technologies becoming lost and rare like in later editions with Space Marine AFVs, skimmers, etc.

Eldar are better than baseline humans but they still use STC weapons and armour just like most of aliens. And before 2nd ed they didn't have monopoly on a lot of stuff like shuriken catapults, jetbikes and hover tanks.

The background doesn't support Space Marines being weaker than non-enchanced human heroes, the opposite, it states that they are ultimate warriors of humanity.

By the way, there's also insufficient differentiation between weapons. For example a bolter fires a projectile that explodes while in flesh and Wh40k explosives are about 30x more powerful than modern ones, so it probably should do multi-wound damage, unlike many other firearms.

Zhu Bajie":vfhwgium said:
Lets have a look at the front cover, the piece that sets the scene for the Rogue Trader experience:

rogue-trader-cover-art-warhammer-40k.jpg


What do we see? Dead space marines, lots of dead Space Marines. Space Marines getting their arses kicked. Space Marines with bleeding heads.See that guy that's getting dramatically shot in the chest? You can see the shadowy figure of a space orc what did shoot him? And what's that coming over the hill? Some mega-monster robots. About to totally annihilate them. Why? Because they ain't fearsome super-heroes.
You're conflating heroes and super-human with super-heroes. That's not the same. For example an athlete on steroids and doping has super-human abilities because of using these to move past un-enhanced human abilities.

I see a bunch of superhuman heroes making a heroic last stand against overwhelming enemy forces that had to bring in multiple dreadnoughts to finish them off.

Space Marines with bleeding heads are obviously minor heroes that have lost one wound :razz: .

Theme of martyrdom doesn't mean there's no exceptional heroic characters involved.

Zhu Bajie":vfhwgium said:
tumblr_lquw84fK7P1r1g40zo1_500.jpg


Looks to me like this Space Marine can only kill a goblin at point blank range. Goblin couldn't hit an elephant, let alone a Space Marine. This is entirely consistent wiv da roolz. What did he do, creep up behind him with his super-stealthy clanking space armour? lol!
This image just showcases the raw psychotic aggression of Space Marines. There needed to be a close up on the Space Marine and the goblin, so it's impossible to guess what the situation is supposed to be. The goblin/marine could just go around a corner of a trench or a building or something. Or maybe assault as a part of a huge horde.

Also Wil Rees is actually the guy that came up with the concept of Space Marines being super-human:

The games workshop had a very talented sculptor create a tiny figurine of a Space Marine. I thought it was amazing but I decided to design them the way I thought they should look, bulky and covered with power armour. I wanted the Marines to be as terrifying and imposing as possible at the time. These Marines had to face incredible foes and I came up with the idea of them being really bulked up on chemicals and larger than the average human. I’m not sure if I ever explained that concept to anyone at the Games Workshop, but they loved the direction of the illustrations and I just kept going.

Zhu Bajie":vfhwgium said:
165973_md-Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Retro%20Reivew,%20Retro%20Review,%20Rogue%20Trader,%20Sister%20Sin.jpg

What's that? A Space Marine being offed by some unique Heroic level character? or just a run of the mill Adeptus Sororitas? Look, he can't even hit her from 2 foot away. Shurely shome mishtake! No. This is what Rogue Trader is all about.
For all we know, Adepta Sororita may be as extreme about selection and training as Space Marines, so they may even be un-enchanced minor heroes.
Also, his miss may have something to do with being hit by an exploding bolt. Then again, there are very strong limitations of art presenting a conflict between two characters.

Zhu Bajie":vfhwgium said:
tumblr_lrconuhmN41r1g40zo1_400.jpg


It might be fun to go through the whole of Rogue Trader and tally up the number of images of space marines winning vs. the number of them getting ripped to shreds by enemy fire. Yes, these are the best humanity has, but they are the fail.
They are ripped to shreds by... something. For all we know it may be a heavy bolter or an auto-cannon or some other heavy/special weapon.

Also, note that we almost never actually get to see the enemies of Space Marines.

Zhu Bajie":vfhwgium said:
The awesome ultimate space heroes you seem to be describing is better represented by something like this:

Warhammer_40000_2nd_edition.jpg


What do we see? Fist-pumping space dudes wading though a load of orcs completely untouched. Yeah WE ROCK! Look at our super-shiney giant-size space tech! We are TEH HEROES! IMHO whole idea that a Space Marine should be Teh Awesum is summed up right there. Nothing to do with the background, presentation and rules of marines in Rogue Trader.
It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Note how none of them isn't even visibly wounded and none of them is blasted apart by heavy/special weapons fire, despite that each ork squad would have one and they are armed with bolters.

Also, art in Rogue Trader is hugely inconsistent, with a lot of it seemingly being drawn in different stages of design and some with some artists not getting a memo that things changed.

How about this?
We have a statuesque heroic marine, that will probably die a few moments later. There are other marines at his feet, that got literally chewed up by enemy fire.
 

Erny

Member
Its a agme they acn be what ever you want!

You have to rember when RT first came out the fluff wasa quite different to how it ended up. This being an Oldhammer forum we tend to view any amount of imposed fluff as merely a suggestion so even the RT stuff is advisory if i remeber correctly we are talking about games we played before yuo were born. Stuff that came out in your own formative gaming years passed most of us by, its important to you, we get it and your not wrong in your opinion it's just we aren't wrong either. Enjoy your space marines however you like them, there is no right and no wrong.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
I think it's one of those things where if you have to try to explain the joke, it's already too late.

The most technologically advanced species in Rogue Trader are bloomin Orangutans. IT'S A JOKE!

AranaszarSzuur":2vhq5uxw said:
The background doesn't support Space Marines being weaker than non-enchanced human heroes, the opposite, it states that they are ultimate warriors of humanity.

Baseline Human < Ultimate Warriors < Minor Heroes < Major Heroes.

It's a simple heirarchy. The background doesn't support Space Marines being better than a Major Hero, better than baseline human yes.

You seem to be taking a few instances of hyperbole against the massive onslaught of contrary data. We can all play that game:

"...a variety of musical instruments may be bought into the fray." (p.155)
"...the battle-brothers recite liturgies, and incant battle-prayers" (p. 160)
"...each chapter has it's own banners, and some chapters even take them into battle " (p 155)

That's right, it's the Imperial Salvation Army!

normal_1961P100.jpg


And yeah, we made jokes about Space Marines being the Salvation Army back in the day.


AranaszarSzuur":2vhq5uxw said:
How about:

KW001K-800x1200.jpg

We have a statuesque heroic marine

Looks much more like:
Warhammer_40000_2nd_edition.jpg


Than anything in Rogue Trader. There are no 'statuesque heroic' space marines in Rogue Trader, it's not a relevant trope, it's something that came along after, it's the same machismo fist-pumping. On the other hand, in Rogue Trader there are shedloads of images of Space Marines getting thrashed, blown up, skulking around trying not to get shot, shooting punks in alleyways, arresting graphiti kids, enslaving Squats, getting shot in the head by Orks with bolt pistols. None of them are in cheesy heroic poses.

165895_sm-Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Retro%20Reivew,%20Rogue%20Trader.jpg


And for whatever reason they're getting shot to bits, whatever they are getting lazered up by, they simply ain't depicted in a heroic manner.
 
Erny":2n2uuaco said:
Its a agme they acn be what ever you want!

You have to rember when RT first came out the fluff wasa quite different to how it ended up. This being an Oldhammer forum we tend to view any amount of imposed fluff as merely a suggestion so even the RT stuff is advisory if i remeber correctly we are talking about games we played before yuo were born. Stuff that came out in your own formative gaming years passed most of us by, its important to you, we get it and your not wrong in your opinion it's just we aren't wrong either. Enjoy your space marines however you like them, there is no right and no wrong.

100% this

Actually if we look at it Space Marines aren't even super-human.... they are 25-28mm pieces of lead/plastic that we spent hours and hours daubing paint onto while our girlfriends/wives sob in the lounge because no house work or DIY ever gets done!
 

Andy H

Member
MadGav":3uaakt9y said:
It also seems odd to me that there are (at most) a million marines - only equivalent to one marine per Imperial planet as memory serves.

There's only one SAS guy per large town in the UK, and one Delta operator per city in the US! They're surgical strike troops, not garrison troops :)
 
Zhu Bajie":1sc04tqd said:
I think it's one of those things where if you have to try to explain the joke, it's already too late.

The most technologically advanced species in Rogue Trader are bloomin Orangutans. IT'S A JOKE!

AranaszarSzuur":1sc04tqd said:
The background doesn't support Space Marines being weaker than non-enchanced human heroes, the opposite, it states that they are ultimate warriors of humanity.

Baseline Human < Ultimate Warriors < Minor Heroes < Major Heroes.

It's a simple heirarchy. The background doesn't support Space Marines being better than a Major Hero, better than baseline human yes.

You seem to be taking a few instances of hyperbole against the massive onslaught of contrary data. We can all play that game:

"...a variety of musical instruments may be bought into the fray." (p.155)
"...the battle-brothers recite liturgies, and incant battle-prayers" (p. 160)
"...each chapter has it's own banners, and some chapters even take them into battle " (p 155)

That's right, it's the Imperial Salvation Army!

normal_1961P100.jpg


And yeah, we made jokes about Space Marines being the Salvation Army back in the day.


AranaszarSzuur":1sc04tqd said:
How about:

KW001K-800x1200.jpg

We have a statuesque heroic marine

Looks much more like:
Warhammer_40000_2nd_edition.jpg


Than anything in Rogue Trader. There are no 'statuesque heroic' space marines in Rogue Trader, it's not a relevant trope, it's something that came along after, it's the same machismo fist-pumping. On the other hand, in Rogue Trader there are shedloads of images of Space Marines getting thrashed, blown up, skulking around trying not to get shot, shooting punks in alleyways, arresting graphiti kids, enslaving Squats, getting shot in the head by Orks with bolt pistols. None of them are in cheesy heroic poses.

165895_sm-Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Retro%20Reivew,%20Rogue%20Trader.jpg


And for whatever reason they're getting shot to bits, whatever they are getting lazered up by, they simply ain't depicted in a heroic manner.
MyHLNWA.png


roguetrader_16.gif


1409623387823.jpg


1365783274559.jpg
 
Zhu Bajie":9cbymvwv said:
AranaszarSzuur":9cbymvwv said:

Y'see space marines aren't invulnerable, their faces get melted off, regularly. I'm glad that the artwork in Rogue Trader reflects the actual rules.
It shows that they regularly pass armour saves. There are at least 4 hits stopped by armour on image and the face-melting one is clearly from some kind of a heavier weapon than the rest. The face-melted marine went down only after being hit with a literal hail of fire. Also, his armour is severely damaged, which shows that he
endured multiple hits with the heavy weapon before eventually getting hit on the helmet and brought down.

The assault marine artwork shows that powered armour is made to stop multiple hits with infantry weapons and generally the artworks show armour surface damage that suggests multiple hits it stopped.

Anyway, as I said before, the martyrdom aspect doesn't make them unheroic.

The 3rd edition artwork I have shown before as an example, has only one living marine and two that are literally chewed up.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Yes that's all correct. But none of it suggests a standard marine should have a better profile than a Human Minor Hero to me ;)
 
Zhu Bajie":yxd15g9k said:
Yes that's all correct. But none of it suggests a standard marine should have a better profile than a Human Minor Hero to me ;)
Nothing in the fluff suggests that Space Marines should have lower combat/physical stats than un-enchanced humans.

Also, judging by how the Marine wasn't dropped by whatever tore open his torso and needed a face-melting to go down clearly indicates he has toughness and wounds comparable to a Tyranid Warrior :razz: .
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
AranaszarSzuur":22w7bz3c said:
Zhu Bajie":22w7bz3c said:
Yes that's all correct. But none of it suggests a standard marine should have a better profile than a Human Minor Hero to me ;)
Nothing in the fluff suggests that Space Marines should have lower combat/physical stats than un-enchanced humans.

They don't - they have stats of enhanced humans, which is why their baseline profile is better than a baseline human, why their Heroes are better than Human Heroes. But a human hero is better than a standard space marine, which is entirely consistent with the background and themes of the game.

AranaszarSzuur":22w7bz3c said:
Also, judging by how the Marine wasn't dropped by whatever tore open his torso and needed a face-melting to go down clearly indicates he has toughness and wounds comparable to a Tyranid Warrior :razz: .

What, like a Space Marine Minor Hero, taking multiple wounds and missing multiple saving throws. 8-)

Like I said before, if you want to make a chapter of space marines where they all have Major Hero statlines, nobody is stopping you.

Stormbringer":22w7bz3c said:
Zhu Bajie":22w7bz3c said:
Space Marines don't go around saving worlds from hostile aliens, they go around harassing punks for doing graffiti.

This is the best Warhammer-related quote ever.
:grin:
 
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