Looking for chaos knight on Griffon

Niko

Member
Hi, I'm looking for the Chaos Knight on Griffon. I just need the rider !
wd135_champions.JPG
 

Gallivantes

Member
Bad timing, I used him in a conversion not long ago (far right)... If you've got something downright jawdropping to trade him for by all means let me know, but I feel obliged to tell you up front he's probably not gonna be for sale. :roll:

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Gallivantes

Member
Niko":2bkbs7gq said:
Gallivantes":2bkbs7gq said:
The greenstuff legs?

No, the original legs ! :lol:

Of course, that would make more sense. I think my vanity got the best of me :grin:

Thanks Niko but I will probably hold on to them until further notice. On the one hand they are great conversion material and on the other hand I struggle to split up a complete kit of oldhammer. Even though I mix my metal parts up, they haven't felt the blade of saw or knife (it would feel somewhat sacriligious to me to do that). All my oldhammer stuff could be restored to stock by removing greenstuff and I sleep well knowing that.

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On a side note, I have always been mystified by that griffon headdress. I mean, what the h*ll? When or where was this even close to the aesthetic of the ruinous powers? Did the champion singlehandedly raid an Empire circus train and decided to keep the fancy show getup for laughs? Did the Wood Elf samba parade idea get scrapped halfway through production and the griffon repurposed for the Chaos line? Was it a prank or a weird joke by the sculptors that accidentally went to casting? And never mind how it looks, how does that rider even SEE? It's such a bananas kit. Having the kit I can report that the saddle is even fancier than they plumage, it's got victorian chair style upholstery. Like someone said "hmm, it needs to be less damnation and more disney princess."

There just has to be a crazy story buried behind this model. Anyone?
 

Niko

Member
Ok !

I'm trying to build the entire "Marauders chaos army" of WD 1991 ? 2000 pts for Warhammer V 3.
ma4chaosarmywd135.jpg

I have the chaos Thugs, the beastmen, the chaos stunties and the handler with chaos puppies and of course the Griffon. I'm looking for the Marauder mounted chaos warriors and the champion on Griffon. I'm very close to finish to built this army for the French Olhammer in the end of May.

So I agree with you, the griffon is strange indeed ! But I love him ! :lol:

Let me knows if you are ready to sell or trade those legs ! :roll:
 

Gallivantes

Member
Wow, a worthy goal. I feel kind of bad for throwing a spanner in your works now. I already have the parts earmarked for my own chaos army I'm afraid. But I'll keep in mind that you were interested :)
 

Blue in VT

Moderator
The question of the origin of the Griffon is a good one. My guess is that it was originally sculpted for the unreleased MM66 Reiksguard knights but then was prepossessed for chaos simply by putting the new rider on it. If you haven't seen the MM66 mounts then check out these pics...I think you will recognize the Plume for sure.



I have a copy of this figure but I'm not planning to part with it.

Good hunting Niko!

Cheers,

Blue
 

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Gallivantes

Member
That looks quite similar indeed, wouldn't be surprised if you are correct Blue. Another detail I noticed looking at the griffon kit are the fringed reins and chest caparison of the other Reiksguard horse, the top one in this shot. There is a fringe similar to it adorning the griffin seat. And the cross stitched style of the seat also features on the seat of the MB15 Imperial Hero on Giant Pegasus too, another similarity to the Marauder Empire range.

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Blue in VT

Moderator
Good eye...in fact the styling is so Similar that I will be placing my MB15 Imperial hero on a spare one of these horses to make my unit of MM66 Knights 6 strong....that makes me wonder if he originally was meant to sit on that Griffon instead of the Pegasus...? :?:

Anyway...all very interesting discussions...but off topic in this thread I suppose.

Sorry to Hijack Niko.

Cheers,

Blue
 
Hey Nico, while hunting for the Chaos knight I also found the griffin rider (and the Griffin!) but there is only one pair of legs between them unfortunately. If you PM an email address I'll send you a photo.
 

The Fat Git

Member
I've had a look in my loft and the model you want is currently MIA if I do come across it I will let you know. Sorry about that.
 

Gallivantes

Member
This griffon came up in another thread and it reminded me about the re-purpose theory. It amused me greatly the first time around, mostly because I had the kit for 25 years and never made the connection. I was rather convinced of the swap just looking at the aesthetics of the kits, but there was no (to me at least) obvious reason why it had been shifted around. So I was looking at the kit again and then another thing dawned on me: A pretty strong reason to move the model from the Empire to the Chaos range.

Supposing this was an actual Imperial hero on griffon being made, there would potentially have been a bit of a problem with this setup. What's that, you say? Well, first of all look at the timeline. The chaos griffon kit was released in '90 (and the MB15 Imperial hero riding a Pegasus that was to show up soon after came out in '91). This puts us still in the period of 3rd edition, what with 4th coming out in '92.

So what about griffons and 3rd edition? Well, there's just that... griffons are creatures of chaos! The paragraph describing them in the Warhammer Rulebook starts with the very line of "The Griffon is a Creature of Chaos..." and further down "Alignment: Chaotic." Maybe not the best choice of a mount for a dashing hero of the Empire. One would have to wonder about his connections a bit.

The Pegasus on the other hand would make a good substitute. Similarly sized, monstrous mount, flying, and more importantly the description in Warhammer Armies says that the Pegasus' Alignment is "Neutral" and the Special Rules specify that "(it)...may only be ridden by Neutral or Good creatures." This would alleviate our poor hero of some rather awkward questions.

And lo and behold, '90 sees the release of a Chaos Griffon in suspiciously Imperial looking attire. The following year an Imperial Hero is released, riding a Pegasus. It has me thinking that somewhere along the line someone started to object to the Griffon as a choice of mount. The paragraphs on alignment in the books are the smoking gun to me.

On a side note, another thing that does become quite apparent when you compare the Griffon and Pegasus is that the Pegasus is the more imposing of the two. The Griffon is a nice kit in its own right, but it's definitely on the small side and the pose is rather static. The forward lifted claw looks a bit more like he's about to press an elevator button than tear a hated enemy of the Empire asunder. In contrast the Pegasus has a little more flair. It's rearing up on its hind legs in a gallopy stride, mane and tail flowing in the wind, the saddle is a lot grander and the whole kit also looks a fair bit bigger.

So if it wasn't good enough for the Empire, why was it good enough for Chaos? Well, I would wager that the alignment issue was the real dealbreaker and if someone thought it looked a little underwhelming that was more of a secondary concern. If the work had gone in to making it then throwing it away would be a waste. Repurposing it for the chaos line would salvage some of that effort, low-hanging fruit and all that.

All told the alignment issue could be reason enough to let the Griffon discreetly shuffle over to join the chaos ranks (appearing with a rider who conveniently has a torso of a chaos knight and the sword of another, so providing a new rider would have been relatively easy). But maybe it was also a matter of the original kit not quite hitting the mark of what they wanted for the Empire hero? If the MB15 Pegasus Hero indeed is a redesign it would seem the second version embraced the opportunity to realise a more flamboyant vision.

Obviously, all of the above is speculation. And it does all rest on the assumption that a swap took place in the first place, which hasn't been established as a fact. But as the forensic analysts say, hate the coincidence. And this seems to have coincidences all over :grin:

What do you guys think? Do you think an Empire Hero on Griffon was nearly done when all of a sudden someone said "Oh we can't have that... Griffons are CHAOS" :)
 
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