Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

So the previews of Prospero Burning are up, and I recently finished "the First Heretic" novel. Both feature Custodes as super-Marines.
That isn't the impression I got from Rogue Trader, but I may simply have missed it. I never planned a scenario involving an assault on the golden throne, so I didn't pay too much attention to them.
Were they always so powerful, or was this a later development? If it was later, does anyone know when it happened? I have fallen a bit behind in my knowledge of 40K fluff since I decided I preferred early stuff, mixed with the odd retcon and my own bits of head-canon.
 
In the rogue trader book they were listed as having a minimum of human minor hero stats. But they were not space marines.
 
i think that its recent. as far as i can tell they were ignored from RT until the Horus Heresy series. To be honest, it makes sense that they can beat Space Marines. What's the point of super bodyguards that can't beat your elite soldiers? i like the idea that the custodes were the third round of creation - first came the primarchs, and the emperor lost them. second came the space marines, who were well hard. then came the custodes, who were improvements to the space marines and would have replaced them eventually but shit went down and the emperor never got to roll them out properly before he had to go and fight chaos in the webway and then get chopped up by horus and put in the golden throne.
 
Gallowglacht":2oh5bycn said:
So the previews of Prospero Burning are up, and I recently finished "the First Heretic" novel. Both feature Custodes as super-Marines.
That isn't the impression I got from Rogue Trader, but I may simply have missed it. I never planned a scenario involving an assault on the golden throne, so I didn't pay too much attention to them.
Were they always so powerful, or was this a later development? If it was later, does anyone know when it happened? I have fallen a bit behind in my knowledge of 40K fluff since I decided I preferred early stuff, mixed with the odd retcon and my own bits of head-canon.
Checked out the stats and Custodes are indeed super-marines in Rogue Trader.

Their WS, BS, T, W, I, A is 1 higher than of Marines.

It's just that they no longer wear armour in 40k.
 
AranaszarSzuur":33qel7fr said:
Checked out the stats and Custodes are indeed super-marines in Rogue Trader.

Their WS, BS, T, W, I, A is 1 higher than of Marines.

It's just that they no longer wear armour in 40k.

Yeah, but I thought that was because they were minor heroes. So badasses, but not genetically engineered super soldiers.
 
I was always under the impression custodes were better than space marines (hence my nickname ;) ) so that canon must have been set either by late RT or early second edition.

However as I get older I find my brain gets increasingly addled... so maybe I have just retconned my old memories.

I'm not sure that I have been very helpful; sorry.....
 
Legiocustodes":288wx653 said:
I was always under the impression custodes were better than space marines (hence my nickname ;) ) so that canon must have been set either by late RT or early second edition.

However as I get older I find my brain gets increasingly addled... so maybe I have just retconned my old memories.

I'm not sure that I have been very helpful; sorry.....

No, you're cool. Maybe I need to be more specific in my question.
They could, right from the start, beat up space marines, as they have a minimum hero's stats, which are better than a standard marine.
They are, however, still the stats of a biologically normal human being. They are elite badasses, but clearly not the genetically engineered combat monsters marines are.

But in recent fluff, they are the result of a similar gene altering process, apparently using the Emperors DNA instead of a Primarchs.
That was the bit I was wondering about, when did the gene-altering happen?

I guess, of course, that it might have always been there, and giving them minor hero stats was an easy short hand. Maybe Rogue Trader just never dwelt on the detail, being more concerned with the shady dealings Abdul Goldberg in and around Greasy Kim's diner.
 
I really dislike how heroes and stuff works. I think baseline Space Marine should be a human minor hero with a Space Marine template applied, not a baseline human with a template applied.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Gallowglacht":uix1b0we said:
They are elite badasses, but clearly not the genetically engineered combat monsters marines are.

Marines aren't genetically altered in Rogue Trader either, they're just humans who have had tech grafted on and special training.

AranaszarSzuur":uix1b0we said:
I really dislike how heroes and stuff works. I think baseline Space Marine should be a human minor hero with a Space Marine template applied, not a baseline human with a template applied.

Personally I prefer the idea of just humans in powered armour, don't really think Space Marines should have the Minor Hero template, unless they are a Space Marine Minor Hero.
 
Zhu Bajie":2cuk0vzs said:
AranaszarSzuur":2cuk0vzs said:
I really dislike how heroes and stuff works. I think baseline Space Marine should be a human minor hero with a Space Marine template applied, not a baseline human with a template applied.

Personally I prefer the idea of just humans in powered armour, don't really think Space Marines should have the Minor Hero template, unless they are a Space Marine Minor Hero.
Space Marines are supposed to be "ultimate human warriors", "specially selected from galaxy's toughest psychopaths" and "surgically altered to be stronger and faster than any normal man". Also, they have insane training schedules.
Marines aren't ordinary men and they aren't just humans. They are selected from an already exceptional group of people. It sounds like heroic characters that were enhanced and then given additional training, not ordinary soldiers to me.

Also, to accomplish what they are supposed to accomplish (being the strike force of the Imperium while operating only in small numbers), they must be something more than ordinary humans with a bit better stats.
 

MadGav

Member
One thing that never really seemed consistent in 40K (well in RT at least - I didn't follow it closely after that) was the space marine fluff and the space marine stats. For "the ultimate human warriors" it seems a bit lame that they are only a touch better than a regular human champion.

It also seems odd to me that there are (at most) a million marines - only equivalent to one marine per Imperial planet as memory serves. To put it another way, why doesn't the Imperium just collect together all the minor/major heroes from the Imperial Army, put them in powered armour and call them space marines? - it would save all that faffing around with psycho-surgery and would actually live up to the hype around them.

How do folks reconcile these different parts of 40K? Do you take it that the space marine stats have been toned-down for game balance?

My own take is that the space marine fluff is just Imperial propaganda. Maybe at the start of the Imperium the marine's training and genetic/surgical modification produced superhuman soldiers but after 10 thousand years of not really understanding how it works, the marines' enhancements give little or no benefit. They're just like good special forces now. The corollary is that there are more than a million of them (after all, with only 1 wound they have a habit of dying) - the Adeptus Terra has turned a blind eye to the limits on Chapter sizes since Chapters started to get wiped out too often.
 
Marine stats got a bit of a bump around 1991 I think. Should be in the 40K Compilation with the new Eldar lists and Genestealer cults. Can't remember how much better it made them though.
 
stone cold lead":3uy9lyrq said:
Marine stats got a bit of a bump around 1991 I think. Should be in the 40K Compilation with the new Eldar lists and Genestealer cults. Can't remember how much better it made them though.

+1 toughness, and some extra morale rules. I think the morale rules were basically what ended up in 2e, including the shaken condition.
 
MadGav":3a26dy2g said:
One thing that never really seemed consistent in 40K (well in RT at least - I didn't follow it closely after that) was the space marine fluff and the space marine stats. For "the ultimate human warriors" it seems a bit lame that they are only a touch better than a regular human champion.

It also seems odd to me that there are (at most) a million marines - only equivalent to one marine per Imperial planet as memory serves. To put it another way, why doesn't the Imperium just collect together all the minor/major heroes from the Imperial Army, put them in powered armour and call them space marines? - it would save all that faffing around with psycho-surgery and would actually live up to the hype around them.

How do folks reconcile these different parts of 40K? Do you take it that the space marine stats have been toned-down for game balance?

My own take is that the space marine fluff is just Imperial propaganda. Maybe at the start of the Imperium the marine's training and genetic/surgical modification produced superhuman soldiers but after 10 thousand years of not really understanding how it works, the marines' enhancements give little or no benefit. They're just like good special forces now. The corollary is that there are more than a million of them (after all, with only 1 wound they have a habit of dying) - the Adeptus Terra has turned a blind eye to the limits on Chapter sizes since Chapters started to get wiped out too often.

I simply dropped the idea of 1000 man chapters. Never happened. My headcanon chapters are made up of 10 divisions of Space Marines, not 10 companies. I can think of times when 1000 Marines is enough to do the job, but there are too many scenarios where it snaps my suspenders of disbelief. I think 40K got the scales right in many cases but were out when it can to numbers of Marines and the size of the Eldar Craftworlds. Craftworlds should have millions on them, not thousands. Thousands is just a space craft, millions is a city in space. Same with Marines. I want Marine chapters large enough to assault and seize worlds. I like the Rogue Trader gritty, die in a knife-fight at a farm marines more than the idea of unstoppable supermen able to take on armies. So I have to up the numbers. Otherwise the fluff doesn't work for me.
 
MadGav":14e73gwf said:
One thing that never really seemed consistent in 40K (well in RT at least - I didn't follow it closely after that) was the space marine fluff and the space marine stats. For "the ultimate human warriors" it seems a bit lame that they are only a touch better than a regular human champion.

It also seems odd to me that there are (at most) a million marines - only equivalent to one marine per Imperial planet as memory serves. To put it another way, why doesn't the Imperium just collect together all the minor/major heroes from the Imperial Army, put them in powered armour and call them space marines? - it would save all that faffing around with psycho-surgery and would actually live up to the hype around them.

How do folks reconcile these different parts of 40K? Do you take it that the space marine stats have been toned-down for game balance?

My own take is that the space marine fluff is just Imperial propaganda. Maybe at the start of the Imperium the marine's training and genetic/surgical modification produced superhuman soldiers but after 10 thousand years of not really understanding how it works, the marines' enhancements give little or no benefit. They're just like good special forces now. The corollary is that there are more than a million of them (after all, with only 1 wound they have a habit of dying) - the Adeptus Terra has turned a blind eye to the limits on Chapter sizes since Chapters started to get wiped out too often.
I don't think it makes sense to treat fluff as Imperial propaganda as it's usually not written as such. The same with early novels. How would for example the Ian Watson tetralogy be an Imperial Propaganda?

The main problem is that Space Marines are supposed to be the flagship faction of game, while at the same time other factions like Imperial Army and Space Orks are supposed to be valid.
Space Marines as a faction on game tables are simply too common, too numerous.

Just imagine Battle of the Farm with fluff marines. How many orks there would have to be for 16 heroic marines? 50? 75?
 

Erny

Member
Don't over think the fluff. The much loved nonsense they came up with about all the various organs incerted into the marines bodies, the fusing of the ribcage that would make breathing impossible, the way they think genes work. It's all Saturday morning action cartoon standard bollocks. But it doesn't matter. This isn't hard science fiction that obeys any sort of currently held scientific laws or even theories it's fun ill thought out sillyness, it's daft space fantasy. Enjoy it at that level and forget how many marines are in a chapter or if human champions should be better or worse then a standard marine. The answer is, depends on whats cool at the time.
 
Gallowglacht":192kz6wf said:
MadGav":192kz6wf said:
One thing that never really seemed consistent in 40K (well in RT at least - I didn't follow it closely after that) was the space marine fluff and the space marine stats. For "the ultimate human warriors" it seems a bit lame that they are only a touch better than a regular human champion.

It also seems odd to me that there are (at most) a million marines - only equivalent to one marine per Imperial planet as memory serves. To put it another way, why doesn't the Imperium just collect together all the minor/major heroes from the Imperial Army, put them in powered armour and call them space marines? - it would save all that faffing around with psycho-surgery and would actually live up to the hype around them.

How do folks reconcile these different parts of 40K? Do you take it that the space marine stats have been toned-down for game balance?

My own take is that the space marine fluff is just Imperial propaganda. Maybe at the start of the Imperium the marine's training and genetic/surgical modification produced superhuman soldiers but after 10 thousand years of not really understanding how it works, the marines' enhancements give little or no benefit. They're just like good special forces now. The corollary is that there are more than a million of them (after all, with only 1 wound they have a habit of dying) - the Adeptus Terra has turned a blind eye to the limits on Chapter sizes since Chapters started to get wiped out too often.

I simply dropped the idea of 1000 man chapters. Never happened. My headcanon chapters are made up of 10 divisions of Space Marines, not 10 companies. I can think of times when 1000 Marines is enough to do the job, but there are too many scenarios where it snaps my suspenders of disbelief. I think 40K got the scales right in many cases but were out when it can to numbers of Marines and the size of the Eldar Craftworlds. Craftworlds should have millions on them, not thousands. Thousands is just a space craft, millions is a city in space. Same with Marines. I want Marine chapters large enough to assault and seize worlds. I like the Rogue Trader gritty, die in a knife-fight at a farm marines more than the idea of unstoppable supermen able to take on armies. So I have to up the numbers. Otherwise the fluff doesn't work for me.
One thing about Rogue Trader space travel:
I think that initially they haven't planned massive cathedral-ships. There are none present in the rulebook.

I think that generally, invasions and raids would be rather small scale due to difficulty of transporting large amounts of personnel and hardware. Attacks would be done mostly against weak, sparsely populated/low tech worlds. Hive worlds and advanced worlds would be practically unassailable.

For example Rhynn's World is supposed to be sparsely populated and mostly agricultural. Crimson Fist chapter was supposed to be enough to defeat any Ork invasion. The Orks were stupid and suicidal to attack the world, but got lucky because the Crimson Fist chapter got nearly annihilated in an accident.

It was certainly nothing comparable to Waaagh! of later editions.

So, I think that generally in "big" wars, a raiding force numbering 1000s of enemies would attack some world and then a chapter of Space Marines would respond and destroy/rout it.

Attacks could also be preceded with a devastating space bombardment.
 

Erny

Member
Think more in terms of how many figures they had on each side in a game. The fluff, what there is fits round that, with bigger battles not excluded just not very possible with the average 14 year olds figure budget, painting schedule and willingness to apply the rules. Game first, highly mallable fluff second.
 
Erny":1ve5v5sc said:
Think more in terms of how many figures they had on each side in a game. The fluff, what there is fits round that, with bigger battles not excluded just not very possible with the average 14 year olds figure budget, painting schedule and willingness to apply the rules. Game first, highly mallable fluff second.
28mm in general is pretty bad above skirmish level. And bigger battles can be made affordable with a separate 6mm game.
Though even big Space Marine/Epic battles are pretty small.

The thing in Rogue Trader is that large gothic space ships aren't visible in the manual at all. All space ships look like pretty standard medium-sized Sci-Fi ships, not giant ships capable of transporting full-sized armies.
They are radically different from the ships depicted two years later in the Battlefleet Gothic advertisement.

I think we can safely assume that initially, Rogue Trader starships were more of the size of those in Star Trek rather than what they became later.

Looking at Star Wars and Battletech, I don't think inter-stellar war on scale present in later Wh40k was present in pop culture.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Marines have better profiles than baseline humans, they are elite troops. But they aren't Ogryns in power armour they're still human, although more like Sardaukar or Mutoids than Stormtroopers. They aren't underpowered by their description at all, that's just backporting later expectations of teh awesum. They ain't teh awesum, they're "feral world" warriors and "city scum" who've undergone hideous surgery and mind control implants to make them better.

And yeah, Space Marines are 40ks version of a minimal, elite fighting force, most of the fighting by humans throughout the cosmos is done by the Army or equivalent. The Empire isn't a great galaxy conquesting force . For goodness sake their elite transport is an upturned skip with a tractor stuck under it, and their weapon of choice is a modified rivet gun, none of which they understand how to fix properly. Space Marines don't go around saving worlds from hostile aliens, they go around harassing punks for doing graffiti. A gretchin with a bow and arrow can kill a space marine at 40 paces. The whole Imperium is complete and utter rubbish, not a bunch of star-travelling crypto-fascist religio-military Übermensch for munchkins. It's a joke, or at least it used to be.

Why does RT even have Custodes? Because they needed to shoe-horn in the Terminators from Nemesis the Warlock. And where did that lead to? Terminator Marines and endless power creep.

Erny":bbi0x0lm said:
It's all Saturday morning action cartoon standard bollocks. But it doesn't matter.

Maybe 2000AD, Dune and Blakes 7 bollocks. Still doesn't matter.

AranaszarSzuur":bbi0x0lm said:
Just imagine Battle of the Farm with fluff marines. How many orks there would have to be for 16 heroic marines? 50? 75?

They are already 'fluff' marines and completely walk over the orks whilst being outnumbered, Battle at the Farm isn't balanced. Just as they are the orks would need 40 troops to even out the odds.
 
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