Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?


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Post Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Zhu Bajie wrote:Marines have better profiles than baseline humans, they are elite troops. But they aren't Ogryns in power armour they're still human, although more like Sardaukar or Mutoids than Stormtroopers. They aren't underpowered by their description at all, that's just backporting later expectations of teh awesum. They ain't teh awesum, they're "feral world" warriors and "city scum" who've undergone hideous surgery and mind control implants to make them better.

I'd say there are two types of marines:
1. The rulebook Marines - specially selected from toughest psychopaths of the galaxy - from warriors of ultra-violent societies. These are people who could already be considered champions or heroes that were then enhanced and rigorously trained.

2. The WD98 Marines are children turned into monsters and rigorously trained. These should be treated like multi-wound monsters like Tyranid warriors instead of normal human beings and also have super-human skills.

One thing that is important is that I don't think human talent should allow people to exceed super-human. That is even a human major hero should still be worse than a baseline Space Marine unless they are somehow trans-human themselves.

Zhu Bajie wrote:And yeah, Space Marines are 40ks version of a minimal, elite fighting force, most of the fighting by humans throughout the cosmos is done by the Army or equivalent.

Only in defence, though. Until Imperial Guard gets introduced.

Zhu Bajie wrote:The Empire isn't a great galaxy conquesting force .

So?

Zhu Bajie wrote:For goodness sake their elite transport is an upturned skip with a tractor stuck under it,

Original Rhino and Land Raiders weren't elite transports. Also, when Rhino and Predator were introduced, they were very high-tech with auto-systems everywhere, ejector seats and power fields.

Zhu Bajie wrote:and their weapon of choice is a modified rivet gun,

Never heard anything about this.

Zhu Bajie wrote:Space Marines don't go around saving worlds from hostile aliens, they go around harassing punks for doing graffiti.

Armed muscular punks, which probably are mercenaries or bandits. Also, the picture is about incursions into the Eye of Terror. Space Marines probably pacify these worlds instead of Imperial Army since they are the mobile forces of the Imperium and Imperial Army isn't.

Zhu Bajie wrote:A gretchin with a bow and arrow can kill a space marine at 40 paces.

Only because of poor game mechanics.

Zhu Bajie wrote:The whole Imperium is complete and utter rubbish, not a bunch of star-travelling crypto-fascist religio-military Übermensch for munchkins. It's a joke, or at least it used to be.

No.

Zhu Bajie wrote:
AranaszarSzuur wrote:Just imagine Battle of the Farm with fluff marines. How many orks there would have to be for 16 heroic marines? 50? 75?


They are already 'fluff' marines and completely walk over the orks whilst being outnumbered, Battle at the Farm isn't balanced. Just as they are the orks would need 40 troops to even out the odds.

I meant for similar results. Orks simply suck. Their inter-stellar forces aren't trained up to inter-stellar elite standards and are poorly armoured. There's no wonder any well-trained armoured force would wipe the floor with them. Still doesn't show any super-human performance by marines. Nothing an ordinary un-enchanced human champion couldn't do.
Last edited by AranaszarSzuur on Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:56 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Erny wrote:Don't over think the fluff. The much loved nonsense they came up with about all the various organs incerted into the marines bodies, the fusing of the ribcage that would make breathing impossible, the way they think genes work. It's all Saturday morning action cartoon standard bollocks. But it doesn't matter. This isn't hard science fiction that obeys any sort of currently held scientific laws or even theories it's fun ill thought out sillyness, it's daft space fantasy. Enjoy it at that level and forget how many marines are in a chapter or if human champions should be better or worse then a standard marine. The answer is, depends on whats cool at the time.


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Post Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:34 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

AranaszarSzuur wrote:
Zhu Bajie wrote:The whole Imperium is complete and utter rubbish, not a bunch of star-travelling crypto-fascist religio-military Übermensch for munchkins. It's a joke, or at least it used to be.

No.


Well, there you go. The whole idea of Space Marines as super-heroes not being born out by the rules isn't because the rules suck, it's because it's basically the wrong idea. Space Marines just aren't supposed to be as hard as a Hero, and nothing in the background suggests they should be, they're just 'a bit better' than humans, the best humans have to offer. They are vulnerable to grechin with a pointy stick because thats how the rogue trader universe actually works, not because of some imaginary disconnect between the background and the rules.

I mean, come on, powered armour is just medieval plate with a little jetpack so it's not so heavy, and so doesn't have encumbrance, wtih some air filters and commslinks, it's not really super-amazing high tech armour like a force-field or whatever, it's basically junk (but still better junk than most other humans have).

AranaszarSzuur wrote: Still doesn't show any super-human performance by marines. Nothing an ordinary un-enchanced human champion couldn't do.


That's because Space Marines aren't supposed to be super human in Rogue Trader, they're just enhanced. Champions are just better versions of whatever. If you want to stat up an entire Chapter of Marines as Major Heroes, just go ahead and do that, pay the points and play them as you like, no worries.
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Post Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Zhu Bajie wrote:Well, there you go. The whole idea of Space Marines as super-heroes not being born out by the rules isn't because the rules suck, it's because it's basically the wrong idea. Space Marines just aren't supposed to be as hard as a Hero, and nothing in the background suggests they are.

It's the opposite. There's nothing in the background that suggests that a Hero should be as hard as a baseline Space Marine.

Another thing is that the personality stats in Rogue Trader are completely out of whack. In Codex Imperial Guard from 2009 even major heroes like Comissair Yarrick have more toned-down stats.

From what I understand, Confrontation is supposed to be the system that reflects the reality of Wh40k. Hmm... looking at the armour penetration tables, it seems that Ian Watson has failed to do his home work.
Or the tables are stupid. I mean Terminator armour is supposed to be used for frontal assaults but 45% of bolt-gun hits will penetrate it.

Zhu Bajie wrote:I mean, come on, powered armour is medieval plate with a little jetpack so it's not so heavy, and so doesn't have encumbrance, it's not super-amazing high tech armour like a force-field or whatever, it's basically junk (but still better junk than most other humans have).

It's not a medieval plate. It's made of mixture of absorptive material and impact-reactive plastic, probably equivalent to carapace armour. It's also sealed, powered so the wearer doesn't experience weight and equipped with auto-senses.

Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?
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Post Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:29 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Zhu Bajie wrote:
AranaszarSzuur wrote: Still doesn't show any super-human performance by marines. Nothing an ordinary un-enchanced human champion couldn't do.


That's because Space Marines aren't supposed to be super human in Rogue Trader, they're just enhanced. Champions are just better versions of whatever. If you want to stat up an entire Chapter of Marines as Major Heroes, just go ahead and do that, pay the points and play them as you like, no worries.

When you enhance a human, you get super-human.
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Post Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:48 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

AranaszarSzuur wrote:Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?


It was supposed to be a friendly query about toy soldiers, and now you're calling him a liar?
Jesus, I'm sorry I brought it up, forget I asked in the first place.....

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Post Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:54 am

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Gallowglacht wrote:
AranaszarSzuur wrote:Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?


It was supposed to be a friendly query about toy soldiers, and now you're calling him a liar?
Jesus, I'm sorry I brought it up, forget I asked in the first place.....


Hey, Aranaszaur is a good guy, don't take offence at his abrasive mannerisms, it's just his way.

AranaszarSzuur wrote:Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?


You seem to be the one claiming the Imperium is somehow supposed to humanity at the height of its technological and military power, rather than a crumbling disjointed wreck that's way best it's prime, and basically rubbish. Read the Timeline of the Imperium and the notes on technology.

So yeah. Power armour is crappy medeival plate, with movement penalties taken out, yes, a space-marine would get his arse handed to him on a plate by a heroic level character, and offed by a goblin with a pointy stick, the Eldar are superior to humanity in every way. The background completely supports this. That is the essence of Rogue Trader.

Lets have a look at the front cover, the piece that sets the scene for the Rogue Trader experience:

Image

What do we see? Dead space marines, lots of dead Space Marines. Space Marines getting their arses kicked. Space Marines with bleeding heads.See that guy that's getting dramatically shot in the chest? You can see the shadowy figure of a space orc what did shoot him? And what's that coming over the hill? Some mega-monster robots. About to totally annihilate them. Why? Because they ain't fearsome super-heroes.

Image

Looks to me like this Space Marine can only kill a goblin at point blank range. Goblin couldn't hit an elephant, let alone a Space Marine. This is entirely consistent wiv da roolz. What did he do, creep up behind him with his super-stealthy clanking space armour? lol!

Image
What's that? A Space Marine being offed by some unique Heroic level character? or just a run of the mill Adeptus Sororitas? Look, he can't even hit her from 2 foot away. Shurely shome mishtake! No. This is what Rogue Trader is all about.

Image

It might be fun to go through the whole of Rogue Trader and tally up the number of images of space marines winning vs. the number of them getting ripped to shreds by enemy fire. Yes, these are the best humanity has, but they are the fail.

The awesome ultimate space heroes you seem to be describing is better represented by something like this:

Image

What do we see? Fist-pumping space dudes wading though a load of orcs completely untouched. Yeah WE ROCK! Look at our super-shiney giant-size space tech! We are TEH HEROES! IMHO whole idea that a Space Marine should be Teh Awesum is summed up right there. Nothing to do with the background, presentation and rules of marines in Rogue Trader.
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Post Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:54 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Asslessman wrote:
Erny wrote:Don't over think the fluff. The much loved nonsense they came up with about all the various organs incerted into the marines bodies, the fusing of the ribcage that would make breathing impossible, the way they think genes work. It's all Saturday morning action cartoon standard bollocks. But it doesn't matter. This isn't hard science fiction that obeys any sort of currently held scientific laws or even theories it's fun ill thought out sillyness, it's daft space fantasy. Enjoy it at that level and forget how many marines are in a chapter or if human champions should be better or worse then a standard marine. The answer is, depends on whats cool at the time.


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Post Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:09 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Zhu Bajie wrote:
AranaszarSzuur wrote:Anyway, it seems you have some alternate setting in mind. Have you ever considered creating your own instead of spreading disinformation?


You seem to be the one claiming the Imperium is somehow supposed to humanity at the height of its technological and military power, rather than a crumbling disjointed wreck that's way best it's prime, and basically rubbish. Read the Timeline of the Imperium and the notes on technology.

So yeah. Power armour is crappy medeival plate, with movement penalties taken out, yes, a space-marine would get his arse handed to him on a plate by a heroic level character, and offed by a goblin with a pointy stick, the Eldar are superior to humanity in every way. The background completely supports this. That is the essence of Rogue Trader.

Power Armour isn't a medieval plate. Plate armour is a medieval plate, but possibly made with superior metals that make it an equivalent of a more advanced Mesh Armour. Power Armour is an equivalent of Carapace Armour.

There's a classification of armour in the rulebook:
Plate and Chain armour are classified as Primitive, while Carapace, Flak, Mesh and Powered armour are classified as Modern.

I've read the time-line of the Imperium and notes on technology. The Imperium is crumbling and superstitious but its technology is still way beyond stuff we have. We don't have power sources for lasguns and lascannons and power armour, we don't have power fields, power weapons, we don't have star ships, we even don't have system space ships, we don't have anti-gravity, we don't have lots of technologies they have.

The fall of technology in Imperium is mainly about losing the ability to understand and invent new technology. In Rogue Trader we don't even have the idea of technologies becoming lost and rare like in later editions with Space Marine AFVs, skimmers, etc.

Eldar are better than baseline humans but they still use STC weapons and armour just like most of aliens. And before 2nd ed they didn't have monopoly on a lot of stuff like shuriken catapults, jetbikes and hover tanks.

The background doesn't support Space Marines being weaker than non-enchanced human heroes, the opposite, it states that they are ultimate warriors of humanity.

By the way, there's also insufficient differentiation between weapons. For example a bolter fires a projectile that explodes while in flesh and Wh40k explosives are about 30x more powerful than modern ones, so it probably should do multi-wound damage, unlike many other firearms.

Zhu Bajie wrote:Lets have a look at the front cover, the piece that sets the scene for the Rogue Trader experience:

Image

What do we see? Dead space marines, lots of dead Space Marines. Space Marines getting their arses kicked. Space Marines with bleeding heads.See that guy that's getting dramatically shot in the chest? You can see the shadowy figure of a space orc what did shoot him? And what's that coming over the hill? Some mega-monster robots. About to totally annihilate them. Why? Because they ain't fearsome super-heroes.

You're conflating heroes and super-human with super-heroes. That's not the same. For example an athlete on steroids and doping has super-human abilities because of using these to move past un-enhanced human abilities.

I see a bunch of superhuman heroes making a heroic last stand against overwhelming enemy forces that had to bring in multiple dreadnoughts to finish them off.

Space Marines with bleeding heads are obviously minor heroes that have lost one wound :P .

Theme of martyrdom doesn't mean there's no exceptional heroic characters involved.

Zhu Bajie wrote:Image

Looks to me like this Space Marine can only kill a goblin at point blank range. Goblin couldn't hit an elephant, let alone a Space Marine. This is entirely consistent wiv da roolz. What did he do, creep up behind him with his super-stealthy clanking space armour? lol!

This image just showcases the raw psychotic aggression of Space Marines. There needed to be a close up on the Space Marine and the goblin, so it's impossible to guess what the situation is supposed to be. The goblin/marine could just go around a corner of a trench or a building or something. Or maybe assault as a part of a huge horde.

Also Wil Rees is actually the guy that came up with the concept of Space Marines being super-human:

The games workshop had a very talented sculptor create a tiny figurine of a Space Marine. I thought it was amazing but I decided to design them the way I thought they should look, bulky and covered with power armour. I wanted the Marines to be as terrifying and imposing as possible at the time. These Marines had to face incredible foes and I came up with the idea of them being really bulked up on chemicals and larger than the average human. I’m not sure if I ever explained that concept to anyone at the Games Workshop, but they loved the direction of the illustrations and I just kept going.


Zhu Bajie wrote:Image
What's that? A Space Marine being offed by some unique Heroic level character? or just a run of the mill Adeptus Sororitas? Look, he can't even hit her from 2 foot away. Shurely shome mishtake! No. This is what Rogue Trader is all about.

For all we know, Adepta Sororita may be as extreme about selection and training as Space Marines, so they may even be un-enchanced minor heroes.
Also, his miss may have something to do with being hit by an exploding bolt. Then again, there are very strong limitations of art presenting a conflict between two characters.

Zhu Bajie wrote:Image

It might be fun to go through the whole of Rogue Trader and tally up the number of images of space marines winning vs. the number of them getting ripped to shreds by enemy fire. Yes, these are the best humanity has, but they are the fail.

They are ripped to shreds by... something. For all we know it may be a heavy bolter or an auto-cannon or some other heavy/special weapon.

Also, note that we almost never actually get to see the enemies of Space Marines.

Zhu Bajie wrote:The awesome ultimate space heroes you seem to be describing is better represented by something like this:

Image

What do we see? Fist-pumping space dudes wading though a load of orcs completely untouched. Yeah WE ROCK! Look at our super-shiney giant-size space tech! We are TEH HEROES! IMHO whole idea that a Space Marine should be Teh Awesum is summed up right there. Nothing to do with the background, presentation and rules of marines in Rogue Trader.

It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Note how none of them isn't even visibly wounded and none of them is blasted apart by heavy/special weapons fire, despite that each ork squad would have one and they are armed with bolters.

Also, art in Rogue Trader is hugely inconsistent, with a lot of it seemingly being drawn in different stages of design and some with some artists not getting a memo that things changed.

How about this?
We have a statuesque heroic marine, that will probably die a few moments later. There are other marines at his feet, that got literally chewed up by enemy fire.
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Post Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: Custodes; when did they become Super-Marines?

Its a agme they acn be what ever you want!

You have to rember when RT first came out the fluff wasa quite different to how it ended up. This being an Oldhammer forum we tend to view any amount of imposed fluff as merely a suggestion so even the RT stuff is advisory if i remeber correctly we are talking about games we played before yuo were born. Stuff that came out in your own formative gaming years passed most of us by, its important to you, we get it and your not wrong in your opinion it's just we aren't wrong either. Enjoy your space marines however you like them, there is no right and no wrong.
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