treps wrote:As the others said the most important thing is having a good time with friends and any game can do the job with the right people, but I do not agree with the snobbishness accusation, I did play 4th and 5th a lot at the time but there was something missing/different as 4th/5th is really a completely different game than 2nd/3rd, there are a lot of differences, for examples :
- No reserve : replaced by march move
- simplify maneuvering on the battlefield
- no push back (and fleeing units managed differently)
- new war machines rules (with new dices)
- no dice other than D6
- New % rules to build the armies
- apparition of an army book per faction (but the list of standard miniatures and monsters is covered in the books), with special characters
- No GM, and the rule of use a D6 if you disagree on a rule
- The beginning of promoting tourneys in White Dwarf as a new way to play with the straight battles without any scenarios or narrative
- to hit table shifted by 1 (in 4th you needed a 3 when it was a 4 in 3rd...) with some other changes (no more hits on 2, and 5 became the higher unmodified needed to hit
- magic system as a game in the game
- ...
I don't say that 4/5th is not a good game, but, the changes are so important that it loose a lot of what makes 2nd/3rd interesting at first, at least to me. I am not crying as they oversimplified the game nor I am stating that the game is unbalanced or totally biased if you do use the super special characters as I don't care for this, but you have to admit that they just made a different one and I can really understand that people do prefer to play 2nd/3rd without being snobbish at all.
For you the simplification takes away from the game that is 2nd/3rd, I can agree with that. My "Snobbish" comment is aimed at those that deride 4th because of it. What you type above is pointing out differences, not deriding so my "snobbish" comment does not apply to you.
At BOYL2015 Orlygg said 4th turned him off. I asked why, he said the general feel of it, then he confessed to have never played it. That's Oldhammer snobbishness (sorry James, but it it). Don't dismiss it without trying it first, you never know, you may actually like it.
There ARE Oldhammerers out there that look down their noses at it and to me that's just rude. It's a viable rules set that's oodles of fun to play that a large chunk of people DO like, so don't try to make us feel inferior for liking it. If I have a large amount of time to play then yes, 3rd is great, but if I want a quick game then 4th it is, what's wrong with that?
Oh and for the record, Orlygg was not rude to me, he's a very nice chap, he seemed like he could be persuaded to give it a go. I'm referring to those that dismiss it out of hand. I honestly have no issue with people who try it and say they prefer 3rd (or any other incarnation), I have an issue with people who are rude and dismissive about it, as though it doesn't belong under the Oldhammer banner. For me Oldhammer is about bringing people in, not shutting them out in the cold because you don't like the rules set they like.