Realm of Law
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Gerner
Member
As one who loves biology (and studies it) I must say that "weird" forms aren't my view of lawful. A lawful being must be the absolut perfect shape to it's own job or niche. Like a specie that had ten thousand years of evolution to reclaim the "perfect" genes for its niche, but only made in an instant.
While chaos mutates and test their followers trough survival of the fittest - law is already created to be the fittest. Law follows and is made of the rules of the evolution - while chaos breaks and tries to survive the rules of evolution.
I hope it makes sense.
While chaos mutates and test their followers trough survival of the fittest - law is already created to be the fittest. Law follows and is made of the rules of the evolution - while chaos breaks and tries to survive the rules of evolution.
I hope it makes sense.
lenihan
Moderator
Gerner":1jeth0jr said:As one who loves biology (and studies it) I must say that "weird" forms aren't my view of lawful. A lawful being must be the absolut perfect shape to it's own job or niche. Like a specie that had ten thousand years of evolution to reclaim the "perfect" genes for its niche, but only made in an instant.
While chaos mutates and test their followers trough survival of the fittest - law is already created to be the fittest. Law follows and is made of the rules of the evolution - while chaos breaks and tries to survive the rules of evolution.
I hope it makes sense.
I would agree with you to a certain extent, except to say that the principle you state only holds for biological forms; geologic forms are "lawful" in different ways.
Citadel Collector
Moderator
Gerner":ixif60is said:As one who loves biology (and studies it) I must say that "weird" forms aren't my view of lawful. A lawful being must be the absolut perfect shape to it's own job or niche. Like a specie that had ten thousand years of evolution to reclaim the "perfect" genes for its niche, but only made in an instant.
While chaos mutates and test their followers trough survival of the fittest - law is already created to be the fittest. Law follows and is made of the rules of the evolution - while chaos breaks and tries to survive the rules of evolution.
I hope it makes sense.
So if lawful = "not weird" what would "not weird" look like in your mind?
Asslessman
Member
Citadel Collector":36ua4nmx said:So if lawful = "not weird" what would "not weird" look like in your mind?
I think he means it as in "unefficient and aberrant" Chaos mutations are random and can make you have to walk on one of your feet (cf. JG Nurgle champion), get a silly voice or plenty of things that ruin your life or make you godly.
Lawful mutations and forms will be "weird" but dictated by some "rule" pushed to the extreme (with things geometric, unchanging and all).
Hope that's what you meant Gerner
Erny
Member
Modrons are described as like atoms in a crystal in neat rows all aligned. I think this came from a mistaken idea that the elements have always been. Most of the elements were created in stars a long time after the big bang but I guess crystals of certain elements are about as ordered as you get in this great entropic universe of ours.
Life on the other hand is chaos expressed in to me it's most beautiful form. Any order you see is an illusion of glimpsing life over incredibly small amounts of time and considering it to be some sort of static ordered, dare I say design. The very essence of evolution by natural selection is chance. Chance over what gets mutated, chance over which selection pressures act upon a mutation, chance over it being enough to fix for a time. There is no end to the possible forms it could take. Imagine watching the humans evolve out of the primordial soup in god time at the same time as everything else evolves. Stop motion taking one photo every 100000 years or so.
If the god of law came to being as an ordered like expression of chaos then yes maybe, "perfect", biological beings would be a good expression of them but they would be fleeting gods.
If they had always been and will always be unchanging then the closest we get is either a physical crystal or some sort of energy or even nothingness. Maybe a vortex or a timeless void is the ultimate expression of law.
I don't know I'm rambling. An aesthetic opposite to chaos is probably better than a literal one for that way lies madness.
Life on the other hand is chaos expressed in to me it's most beautiful form. Any order you see is an illusion of glimpsing life over incredibly small amounts of time and considering it to be some sort of static ordered, dare I say design. The very essence of evolution by natural selection is chance. Chance over what gets mutated, chance over which selection pressures act upon a mutation, chance over it being enough to fix for a time. There is no end to the possible forms it could take. Imagine watching the humans evolve out of the primordial soup in god time at the same time as everything else evolves. Stop motion taking one photo every 100000 years or so.
If the god of law came to being as an ordered like expression of chaos then yes maybe, "perfect", biological beings would be a good expression of them but they would be fleeting gods.
If they had always been and will always be unchanging then the closest we get is either a physical crystal or some sort of energy or even nothingness. Maybe a vortex or a timeless void is the ultimate expression of law.
I don't know I'm rambling. An aesthetic opposite to chaos is probably better than a literal one for that way lies madness.
Gerner
Member
Thanks for clarifying my mess.Asslessman":26tna9i6 said:
Weird is such a loose word that have a personal meaning to everyone. I would for example think that many octopus would be a lawful being (to keep in natural) as they have persevered as a specie for a long time without changing much. It is difficult taking an example for an animal that could be chaotic (by being new and not tested in natural fitness probably) - top of the head is humans (but there is a lot of personal and political thoughts in this).
I completely disagree that natural selection is chance, but I don't know if it relevant to discuss it. Simply put - mutations is very slow/small on individual level, you only survive and reproduce as a specie if you are absolute fit. It is not rolling a die, it is selecting the best in everything.Erny":26tna9i6 said:
From what I understand the Gods of Law came at the same time as the Gods of Chaos since they 1) both are manifistations of chaos/warp 2) are 8 siblings. If we are talking something that compares to daemons (for Law) I think we have to be imaginary - a ball of light or the opposite a black hole (good luck painting those). If we mean champions I would suppose many of them would be humans, who could use perfect armours and weapons.
If you are rambling, then I like you rambling. I agree with aesthestic is being better than literal.
Zhu Bajie
Member
That's a nice piece of writing there Erny.
To me the essence of Law is about imposing ones will and ideas on the world - hence the idealised 'beautiful' giants and the 'mathematical' daemons, in many ways Law is a rejection of nature, as Spirit overcomes Flesh, and Mind overcomes Matter.
IIRC the great Warp entities feed off the emotions of intelligent life forms, so the Chaotics Khorne is hate and bloodlust, Slanesh is fear of sex, Nurgle is erm, the fear of being an ugly spotty fat bloke? and Tzeentch is random psychedelic nutjobiness, or cats.
Anyway, Law could work the other way, so rather than the worst, most debased emotions, they'd be the most aspirational. Solkan would be an idealised masculinity (Paladin), Arianka some kind of idealised woman (maybe in the fairy-tale princess vein), Alluminas - mathematical and logical purity, The Nameless God... the Word of Law (which is never spoken).
Might be cosmologically important that the gods of Law do not 'feed' the gods of Chaos. Solkan isn't all angry, he's righteous and pious - perhaps even puts a ban on cutting weapons so as to avoid feeding the Blood God (clerics in D&D). Arianka might be beautiful, but utterly cold, remote and untouchable. Alluminas - platonic elements / newtonian physics, not Einstein, not Schrödinger, not fractals (sorry Brian Cox!)
To me the essence of Law is about imposing ones will and ideas on the world - hence the idealised 'beautiful' giants and the 'mathematical' daemons, in many ways Law is a rejection of nature, as Spirit overcomes Flesh, and Mind overcomes Matter.
IIRC the great Warp entities feed off the emotions of intelligent life forms, so the Chaotics Khorne is hate and bloodlust, Slanesh is fear of sex, Nurgle is erm, the fear of being an ugly spotty fat bloke? and Tzeentch is random psychedelic nutjobiness, or cats.
Anyway, Law could work the other way, so rather than the worst, most debased emotions, they'd be the most aspirational. Solkan would be an idealised masculinity (Paladin), Arianka some kind of idealised woman (maybe in the fairy-tale princess vein), Alluminas - mathematical and logical purity, The Nameless God... the Word of Law (which is never spoken).
Might be cosmologically important that the gods of Law do not 'feed' the gods of Chaos. Solkan isn't all angry, he's righteous and pious - perhaps even puts a ban on cutting weapons so as to avoid feeding the Blood God (clerics in D&D). Arianka might be beautiful, but utterly cold, remote and untouchable. Alluminas - platonic elements / newtonian physics, not Einstein, not Schrödinger, not fractals (sorry Brian Cox!)
Captain Crooks
Member
In terms of modelling warbands, dont forget that followers of chaos earn the praises, rewards and punishments of their chosen deity a bit at a time - a new champion of chaos wouldn't look to different to a normal human/dwarf/goblinoid/motorcycle centaur. But over time, as the 'blessings' pile up, so too does the resemblance to their chaotic ideal. I think the same could be true of the followers of law.
A sentient crystal might not be a perfect sphere yet but he's trying, dammit! One day he will shed the rest of his facets and become the infinite thingamumma. Until then he'll keep on spinning and firing his stasis spells and living the dream...
A sentient crystal might not be a perfect sphere yet but he's trying, dammit! One day he will shed the rest of his facets and become the infinite thingamumma. Until then he'll keep on spinning and firing his stasis spells and living the dream...
Erny
Member
Gerner":1bs9ncfr said:
Mutation is a chance event, there are no natural mechanisms to direct mutation to a position of choice. This is rolling a die.
Selective pressures are random. Species evolving on a nice tropical island have one set of pressures, a freak one in a million years Tsunami that wipes out all life on the island renders all selective pressure moot. Or the coming of sailors or the rats in their hold switches things around. Read up on the thrifty genes theory if you want a human example. It is rolling a dice.
Even which traits fix is rolling a dice. A beneficial trait can sink without trace and something broadly negative may fix in a population. The most obvious way this happens is if a slightly positive trait is linked to a strongly negative one or vice verse. Sometimes chance just makes it happen ignoring selective pressures.
Imposing will upon this blind chance is I think a nice interpretation of the values of law. Chance means that we have species of the Family Bovidae as diverse as the Nilgai, Bongo, Wisent and Kouprey. The imposition of order and law through mans selective breeding gives us the Holstein, Angus or Highland.
So perhaps law strives to impose order but isn't restricted to a given end result. it is the process not the end which is important. In this way order does indeed battle entropy. Chaos sees my fence blow down in the wind, order leads me to repair it or replace it or plant a hedge. The goddess in the crystal cage is the most beautiful woman ever seen but also the most beautiful dwarf and most handsome man. The crystal warrior just one gods way of imposing order on his followers.
lenihan
Moderator
Convergence in evolution is a nice illustration of the chaos/law dynamic. Recurrent 'best fit' solutions to specific problems emerging from what are, as Erny expresses so well, random processes.
Which makes me think of law emerging from chaos. Which makes me think that maybe the law gods started out as chaos gods.
Which makes me think of law emerging from chaos. Which makes me think that maybe the law gods started out as chaos gods.
Zhu Bajie
Member
Erny":h4pn4j2f said:
Granting bonuses for leadership, perhaps rather than "gifted" with disordered mutations, units get abilities to carry out unusual formations, spear-man wedges etc. Of course Law favours large blocks of identical troops moving in unison moving behind a single hero, rather than the rag-tag warbands of chaos.
Fimm McCool
Member
Fimm McCool
Member
Sandman, Season of Mists. My favourite of the series.
Zhu Bajie
Member
Nice how the Envoy of Chaos seems to have borrowed Deleriums dress sense.
The Endless as Warp Entities.
Destruction, Khorne
Desire, Slanesh
Delirium, Tzeentch
Despair, Nurgle
which leaves us with...
Dream / Daniel
Death
Destiny
who don't work as gods of law at all
although I can see Destiny working quite well visually.
The Endless as Warp Entities.
Destruction, Khorne
Desire, Slanesh
Delirium, Tzeentch
Despair, Nurgle
which leaves us with...
Dream / Daniel
Death
Destiny
who don't work as gods of law at all
although I can see Destiny working quite well visually.
Erny
Member
Destiny is a God of law if he's anything, past present and future all written in a book and he turns up to set things not in the book straight! Even death is preoccupied with people dieing at the correct time and place.
Being creative types perhaps there are other more lawful Endless that never got mentioned:
Duty, Determination, Decree ?
Being creative types perhaps there are other more lawful Endless that never got mentioned:
Duty, Determination, Decree ?
