OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©


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Post Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:16 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

Zhu Bajie wrote:There's this website called eBay. With some money and some patience you will be able to obtain legitimate, legal versions of any of the items you desire.

Recasting is illegal, don't do it, and don't encourage others to do it. Simples.


Thank you for your sarcastic & condescending remarks....... constructive as always.
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Post Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:28 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

Well if you're going to post such a silly rationale for breaking the law...
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Post Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:55 am

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

Please keep this polite, people; I'm trying to encourage debate - therefore, if you have something to say on this subject please state your case, reasoning etc. and let the forum consider your posts in their own time and way.

I in no way want to influence this conversation - so will stay silent on the subject, but I am following it with interest.

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Post Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:32 am

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

Hi chaps

I understand the arguments that have been posted so far, but I think it raises some questions.

I remember seeing somewhere before that someone had sculpted their own Ambull out of greenstuff. Whilst I can't say the thing was a splitting image of the original, I suspect for the purposes of copyright theft, one would argue that it was a copy of the original (in my mind, it was about 99% the same). So my question is, if we sculpt our own figure to be a splitting image of the original, is that a copyright infringement?

If it was an infringement, should we then not discuss using greenstuff to sculpt, because we're telling people how to sculpt exact replicas and therefore break the law?

There is a second implication of the above. Where do we stand on 'NOT' figures - something like Fimm McCool's ostensibly NOT-Fimir? I can appreciate they are not exact duplicates of the original - and I'm sure that Fimm has done the due diligence required for him to invest as much as he has in them - but just off the back of the comments on this forum in various thread, could someone reasonably imply they were created to fill a gap in the market based on the shortage of original fimir?

If so, could we imply copyright infringement?

If so, should we no longer discuss his figures here, in case there is a potential 'letter-of-the-law' (as opposed to spirit-of-the-law) violation?

Apologies, Fimm, for picking on you (if you're reading) - it was the best example I had of watching something develop here on the forum and I'd be very interested in the work you did to determine you were safe to sculpt your range as you did. I suspect that the best answer to the questions in this discussion lie in your responses, as you're the most committed down this path.

TO BE CLEAR - I am not raising these questions to challenge or defend anything. I am not looking to 'win'. I am interested in meaningful, clear and well thought out answers to questions whose answers I do not know. If the answers to the above are all yes, then that's okay. I am interested in useful debate and argument, not curt one liners. Please could I urge any responders to take this in mind, as I think these are really important questions and as a community, we need to get to the bottom of this.

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Post Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:44 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

Weazil, I think that the problem these debates face is that copyright is a very grey area. Fir instance, we know that straight up molding a miniature is copyright infringement and we know that sculpting your own original idea is completely legal. But everything else is grey--that's why these things (e.g., the GW-Chapterhouse suit) go before judges. (Note though, that some grey areas lean much more toward side than the other)

And that's when your own personal philosophies get brought in. Zhu, for example, clearly believes in a very strict interpretation, while Optimus, for example, believes in a much more lax interpretation. And once you bring in personal philosophies, arguments start.

TL;DR arguments about copyright are inevitable.

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Post Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:53 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

ardyer wrote:Fir instance, we know that straight up molding a miniature is copyright infringement .


That's right.

Gaj - IMHO The community only needs to and step and moderate when the infringement is clear. If it's a grey area, as far as moderation is concerned I think it's best left alone - there's no need to police things that aren't obviously an infringement, and I think we'd be asking too much of our moderators to have to make judgement calls on borderline cases. Discussion is useful tho'.

Meanwhile...

I might be just repeating internet hearsay, but I believe GW has published an article about press-moulding bitz - is there not implied consent in that? If anyone has reference to which WD/CJ that might have appeared in it would be useful.
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Post Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

Zhu Bajie wrote:I might be just repeating internet hearsay, but I believe GW has published an article about press-moulding bitz - is there not implied consent in that? If anyone has reference to which WD/CJ that might have appeared in it would be useful.


They did in a US white dwarf because I was shocked when I saw that for the very reason you pointed out. I can attempt to look through some of mine to see, but I don't remember the exact issue, only about a 3-4 year range.

But, the issue with implied consent is that it's implied and a judge has to agree with you, and it would be very fact dependent. For example, press moulding a face might be less likely to have implied consent than the Blood Angel blood drop for a shoulder pad. All that grey stuff again.
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Post Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

weazil wrote:Apologies, Fimm, for picking on you (if you're reading) - it was the best example I had of watching something develop here on the forum and I'd be very interested in the work you did to determine you were safe to sculpt your range as you did. I suspect that the best answer to the questions in this discussion lie in your responses, as you're the most committed down this path.


No problems, and the answer is I'm not at all sure. I've done my best to draw heavily on a couple of additional references to avoid out-and-out copying, mainly because I wanted to take it in a different direction anyway. I'm being very careful not to advertise them in any official channels as Fimir so a search for Fimir models will not bring them up. The Myeri now have a fully-fledged back story and rules set which they are a part of and their character is very different, future releases will only follow down this line. Oakbound are a very, very small enterprise and if a C&D came through from anything as mighty as GW's legal team I would have to C and maybe even D. I'd hope GW are above pummelling something which is so tiny, cottage-industry and not directly challenging them or branding itself as an alternative. The same way Impact Miniatures and Blood Moon Miniatures are able to continue to carry their derivative products. The bottom line is that these guys may have sprung from some sculpting I did for my Fimir army, but at the time of releasing them and even more so now they really were Myeri in my mind, with their own origin and heritage, who were merely influenced by some of my favourite citadel minis.

Interesting conversation though, and one which clearly carries a range of views within the forum. I hope we can agree to disagree with gentility.

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Post Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:29 am

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

I like that since joining this forum I have obtained copies of all of the rules for warhammer fantasy battles from 1st ed through to 3rd ed, all of the rogue trader and 2nd edition 40k stuff and a variety of other resources to boot.

Note: The above statement does not in any way state what format these resources are in, it implies things but there's nothing concrete and so no rules of the forum or of copyright infringements (which also get down to localised/regionalised laws such that what's the done thing in one region of the world is irrelevant in another) have been broken. Of note though, in the implication, is how readily resources are available if people pay attention to these boards.

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Post Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:07 pm

Re: OOP, PDFS & COPYRIGHT ©

I doubt that all GW printed products are still in copyright, i remember reading that printed works have a 25 year life before being Public domain (meaning anyone can publish versions of classic literature)-though this may have changed.
With regard to things in old WD and Compendiums/journals in many cases express permission was given to copy for personel use.
I`m not interested in touching the casting issue but as far as regards printed works-would it not be worth the mods drafting a letter to GW legal asking for some clarification on obsolete versions of game products?
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