Pygmies, Stereotyping and all that.


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Chaos God of Nudehammer

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Post Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:10 pm

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

Olean, those big lipped midgets are really well done. Very good job.

mbh

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Post Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:05 pm

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

Chico wrote:Olean, those big lipped midgets are really well done. Very good job.


super racist but still a really nice job
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Post Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:21 pm

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

mbh wrote:
Chico wrote:Olean, those big lipped midgets are really well done. Very good job.


super racist but still a really nice job


Indeed, they are nicely done.

I am torn with this kind of subject matter. On the one hand it can be viewed as offensive and on the other hand it is an example of a specific art style and is not intended to be hateful. I think it is good to have it around as at least it provokes discussion and it's better than pretending it never happened.

mbh

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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:01 am

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

theottovonbismark wrote:
mbh wrote:
Chico wrote:Olean, those big lipped midgets are really well done. Very good job.


super racist but still a really nice job


Indeed, they are nicely done.

I am torn with this kind of subject matter. On the one hand it can be viewed as offensive and on the other hand it is an example of a specific art style and is not intended to be hateful. I think it is good to have it around as at least it provokes discussion and it's better than pretending it never happened.


probably not hateful but ignorant at the very least. I wonder if I see it differently being from the US.

but it is a really nice looking force

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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:30 am

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

mbh wrote:
theottovonbismark wrote:
mbh wrote:
Chico wrote:Olean, those big lipped midgets are really well done. Very good job.


super racist but still a really nice job


Indeed, they are nicely done.

I am torn with this kind of subject matter. On the one hand it can be viewed as offensive and on the other hand it is an example of a specific art style and is not intended to be hateful. I think it is good to have it around as at least it provokes discussion and it's better than pretending it never happened.


probably not hateful but ignorant at the very least. I wonder if I see it differently being from the US.

but it is a really nice looking force


neither hateful nor ignorant, long protracted rambling here: http://realmofzhu.blogspot.co.uk/2013/0 ... gmies.html

But perhaps discussion on this theme would be served better in another thread.

Nice Pygmies btw! Wish I had more time to spend on my hobbitses!
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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:43 am

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

It's a fantasy world, and as such it would never have occurred to me to look for insult or bigotry. Are short, bearded men mocked when we paint bizarrely proportioned dwarfs? Are the Eastern people really mocked when we say that hobgoblins and worse live in the geographically equivalent places in our fantasy worlds? The pygmies are bizarrely proportioned, yes, but so is nearly every fantasy range. The Kallistra ones happen to be modeled from early White Dwarf illustrations, which themselves are 'inspired' by pulp fictions and old films and such. None of that is an 'excuse', just an explanation of origins. And as such it is entirely possible no nastiness was/is meant at all.

Oops. Just read that we are supposed to discuss this elsewhere. I will shut up now, and will happily delete this if anyone at all requests it.
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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:30 am

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

Nastiness doesn't have top be meant. Godfrey Bloom didn't mean offense when he used the term Bongo Bongo land. It still was offensive. These pygmies fall into the same category as Bongo Bongo land and golliwogs to me. No offense necessarily meant but still offensive IMHO.

I know many people feel differently on this and I don't want to start a fight or alienate other people but after having read the subject I cannot say nothing. Please feel free to discuss as you like, post pictures as you like but in the knowledge that at least one person and likely more here find them offensive, we will just have to disagree.
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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:43 am

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

I have never been a racist, not in the slightest. (Maybe when I was 7 I told Englishman, Scotsman and Irishman jokes, but that's it - that was the early 70's for ya.) I think my complete lack of racism meant I didn't see any issue with the pygmies. Just didn't occur to me - they were simply another fantasy race, populating another fantasy region, and best of all, different from the other armies I had.

I can, however, see where you are coming from. I am not daft. But are dwarfs offensive? Are stereotype/pantomime arabyans? Are hobgoblins? The 'line' is hazy, the sort of line drawn in different places by different people. I certainly don't expect my fantasy armies to mean anything, to say anything about me or my attitudes. They're just toy soldiers, and usually silly ones at that.
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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:21 pm

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

There you go. I won't say another word about it here, but I must admit I barely knew a thing about real-world pygmies, so have spent some of the night reading some awful tales from history and some frighteningly recent events. I don't (and didn't when I saw the earlier posts here) really consider the Warhammer pygmies as anything like people from our own world or an intentional insult, no more than the other stereotypes shown. If anyone takes offence, then fair enough I think, even if I originally didn't.

Hey Zhu, I know I'm pushing the topic but since you bring your blog post up, there was actually a mention of Warhammer Pygmies much later than 1988 in White Dwarf. A Warhammer Quest piece I believe involving orcs (I remember how awkwardly the orcs used the term pygmy, it actually took a couple of reads to notice what he was saying). Seemed really out of place in the 90's. Perhaps the same goes for the Warmaster "Jungle Halflings" given at Games Day 2003, but they were just as generic "jungle/forest men" as forest goblins, for example.

Anyway, back on topic, it's been way too hot lately for me to paint! Pretty awful here at the moment in general. The other day I had paint drying as I applied it, and the fan only made things worse, so not much progress.
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Post Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:29 pm

Re: The "How to do Oldhammer" Thread

I have never thought of you as a racist Padre, indeed the way you have used the figures is anything but racist. Additionally your painting style certainly diminishes the rubber lip look which I think is the problem with these figures.

My personal opinion is that I will use pygmies as allies for my slann but I will be using historical figures that don't over emphasis a physical traits that are part of a long history of mocking oppressive stereotypes. Different to hobbits and dwarves by so many degrees, nobody ever oppressed and enslaved fat short bearded white men and used there physical appearance to prove, "scientifically", and socially that they were different and deserved their treatment.
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