PDF's & OOP rules/articles

Grumdril

Member
lenihan":1zb0knal said:
I think we can all agree that from a business perspective GW's attempts to protect their IP are sound. If I'm playing devil's advocate, then I have to say I think it's a little brazen when you consider that really there's very little in GW's IP portifolio that is truly original; it's mostly derived from the rich pool of historical, fantasy, sci-fi, and pop culture resources, so if I was being particularly grumpy I'd suggest that what they're doing amounts to an enclosure of the commons, much like recording artists who try to claim copyright on traditional songs. Which would be a really interesting debate, I think, but probably likely to veer to close to the admittedly tedious vice of "GW bashing".

Take a look at GW's copyrights / trademarks list - I found it interesting but you many not :)

Orc and elf (etc, etc) are not GW trademarks. Ork and Eldar are. Space marine is not a trademark, Adeptus Astartes and various chapter names are. So if you have orcs fighting elves fighting a vaguely Germanic high medieval human army you're entirely free of IP, if the humans have a priest of Sigmar or the orcs have Skaven (but not ratmen) allies you're using GW IP. If you write about the latter in a fan way you're fine. If you publish and sell the latter scenario, or write it in a way that GW considers derogatory, obscene, or offensive you're probably in trouble.

lenihan":1zb0knal said:
I also think that the idea that you're not allowed to contaminate their miniatures with parts from miniatures by other companies is hardly gamer-friendly in principle (so when I put a pitchfork from S&D models, a railway scenery manufacturer, in the hands of one of my minis, I was breaking their rules - something I didn't know until I read this yesterday) although as in practice I've never heard of anyone getting a cease and desist letter for playing with a converted mini, I think you could say that the policy is just a very sensible covering their back-side. So what I'm saying is that they're gamer-friendly in the sense that they turn a blind eye. But as the treatment of some internet fan materials shows, they will only take this so far.

If you create a conversion you're not "breaking their rules", you're creating a deriviative work of a copyrighted work without the copyright holders permission, which potentially breaks copyright law. See my previous post about why GW can't give blanket permission to do this, and hence why their words are as they are. There are fair dealing / fair use exceptions to copyright law but without a lawyer you don't want to go there. Also I notice that they ask you to not combine stuff from other manufacturers. They tell you what to do most of the rest of the time... :)

If the BBG case is what you mean by "treatment of internet fan material" it wasn't that, they were also breaking copyright law. They chose to delete the safe fan material as collateral damage. Without paying for a lawyer of their own to decide what was safe and what wasn't they'd not have had much choice, but if all they'd had in the first place was fan material within the bounds of GW's terms then I imagine they'd have been fine.
 

lenihan

Moderator
Grumdril":1uyjxky8 said:
Take a look at GW's copyrights / trademarks list - I found it interesting but you many not :)

I did look, and do find it interesting! I'm amazed they can trademark some of these things; but to be frank, that's an issue with trademark law rather than GW themselves.

But yes, I think we agree that a business needs to adopt a sensible strategy here. I do think it would be interesting to see just how much they could claim originality over much of this material in a court of law. (Interesting, but expensive!) Clearly, their strategy would be to prevent it from getting that far.

I'm aware of the Chapterhouse Studios case, but must admit that I haven't really bothered to look much into it.
 

bug16

Member
I don't think anybody here has a problem with a company protecting their IP but GW did go through a very aggressive phase of threatening pretty much anybody and everybody they though they could.

GW have no control over what you do with your miniatures. There's nothing on the blister when you buy them stating any form of contract so good luck to them stopping me converting my old Citadel models with other manufacturers then taking photos of them to post online without their Copyright notice on it. What'd be next? You can only use GW paint to paint them?
 

ardyer

Member
Grumdril":2972eth1 said:
I'm not remotely a lawyer, so I'm interested in what ardyer's associate had to say, but it is a subject that interests me so my understanding of the situation hopefully isn't a million miles off.

Okay, back from vacation. I should preface this with the fact that I am a patent attorney, not a copyright attorney. That said, I went to law school for copyrights, it just turns out I am way better at patents. Also, this is a discussion of US law, but due to international treaties, most countries copyright law is similar. And finally, the standard legal disclaimer: I am not representing anyone with this information and do not act on it. Please consult a locally licensed attorney before doing anything and do not take my word that something is or is not allowed.

I’m not going to detail the exchange between the law professor and myself, but here is the substance of it. There are a couple of issues to the photographing of miniatures and copyright law that must be understood. The first is that of a derivative work. A derivative work exists when a person takes another copyrighted work and creates something new with it. The best example is with music: sampling a song to create a new song is a derivative work. If you create a derivative work, you are only entitled to a copyright in your creation if you have permission to use the original work. This leads to the next concept: licensing. We all probably know what a license is, but there are really two kinds. Express licenses are statements granting permission to use and that detail what rights come with it. For example, movie studios have written contracts for soundtrack songs detailing what songs they can use, how they can be used, what forms they can be distributed in, etc. The other type of license is an implied license. These are a bit trickier. You have to look at the totality of the facts and determine if the copyright holder implied that the user could use the work for the purpose it was used. This is also the type of test that can lead to different results amongst different people, even with the same facts.

So, with Miniature photographs (Science Fiction and Fantasy, historical stuff brings in another set of issues), we have a chain of three or four works that have to be examined. The first work is the miniature itself, the second work exists if the miniature is converted, the third is the painted model, and the final work is the photograph of the painted model. The second, third, and fourth works are all derivative works.

Clearly, Games Workshop (or whoever made the model) is entitled to a copyright in the miniature as a work of sculpture. I think it is unarguable that there exists an express license to paint the models, the back of the blister tells you about assembling and painting the model and the current boxes even tell you what colors to use. For the conversion, if the license isn’t explicit, it is so heavily implied that it isn’t really worth discussing either.

So this leaves us with photographing your painted miniature. This is a new work of art, as it is a photograph. But I don’t know that I’ve ever seen GW granting permission to photograph your miniatures. So at best you have an implicit license. But, what factors can we line up to prove that? About the only one I can think of is that GW knows we do it and doesn’t stop it. That, by itself, isn’t generally going to be enough to imply a license. I don’t recall any White Dwarf articles on miniature photography. The next best factor is that they have asked for submissions of people’s painted models, at least the US White Dwarf and web site have. However, that would only go so far as to grant permission to take a photograph and send it to them (if that), and not to take a photograph and post it to the internet. GW does encourage the display of your painted works (e.g., golden demons, local painting contests, etc), but this doesn’t per se extend to photography. So, in all honesty, it looks like photographing your painted miniatures is actually copyright infringement.

There are two caveats to this. The first is you might be able to squeeze around it if the photographs are for selling the model because you have the right to sell your models under the First Sale Doctrine. But even that is relying on the idea that it would be inequitable to not allow you to post a photo of something you’re trying to sell were the primary factor of the sale is how it looks.
The second caveat is that unless GW has registered the copyright in each and every miniature you post a photograph of, the most they can do is sue to have the corresponding photograph taken down. And I doubt they have because that usually requires you to send in copies to your country’s copyright bureau (the Library of Congress in the USA). That would be a lot of work for the number of models they produce each year.
 

ardyer

Member
illuminatus":2v4dg4kt said:
ardyer":2v4dg4kt said:
So, in all honesty, it looks like photographing your painted miniatures is actually copyright infringement.

Well, as I wiser man than me once wrote, "If the law supposes that ... the law is a ass — a idiot."

One mistake I think a lot of people make is that we (and I say "we" on purpose) tend to assume that the law and "morality" are the same. They are not. I agree that not allowing photographs is stupid and, equitably speaking, not right.

I did also forget the mention that just because it is copyright infringement doesn't mean that GW would ever enforce that copyright. They'd be stupid to do so; it would be a public relation's nightmare. Not that GW is adverse to public relations fiascoes :lol: And even if they could get damages, any sane judge would only give minimal damages because they're isn't any statutory minimum damage, as far as I know, for this type of infringement and there isn't really any actual damage to GW for the infringement.

One other good note that I forgot to make: the aforementioned professor did thank me for the following year's exam question. The reason that is good is that law school exam questions are designed so that they can go either way, the purpose of the question is to see how you structure your argument on the side you choose. As a result if this did ever come up, a good lawyer could probably argue the implied license.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
ardyer":eho3d1g4 said:
The second caveat is that unless GW has registered the copyright in each and every miniature you post a photograph of, the most they can do is sue to have the corresponding photograph taken down. And I doubt they have because that usually requires you to send in copies to your country’s copyright bureau (the Library of Congress in the USA). That would be a lot of work for the number of models they produce each year.

Just FYI in the UK and EU copyright is granted automatically, no registration needs to take place, and in fact there is no way of registering a copyright. Which reduces paperwork considerably.

In an increasingly digital and increasingly owned (i.e. Facebook own their digital channel, suckers posting there are just feeding their advertising machine) world, I can see GW taking down photos in the next 5-10 years as copyright infringement in order to own the channels once they've fully invested in digital (recent eBooks is a start). It's similar reasoning as to why they don't advertise.

Also I'll note that in the UK, there is no provision in Fair Dealing (our version of Fair Use) for making private copies of anything (ripping a CD to MP3 is still technically illegal, even if you don't share it). The UK Government has legislation to change the law, but it hasn't been passed yet. Same with use in parody - technically not legal in the UK.

A work of art has a copyright for 70 years. A work of industry (or a design), only has copyright protection for 15 years. As illustrated by the Stormtrooper case (Star Wars Stormtroopers are no longer in copyright in the UK) - where it was argued that the Stormtrooper was not a work of art, but a functional piece of equipment to make a film - which is the work of art. Similarly it could be argued that a Space Marine playing piece is not in itself a work of art, but a functional piece of equipment to make a game, and therefore have been out of copyright for a decade.
 

ardyer

Member
Zhu Bajie":1zam31xc said:
ardyer":1zam31xc said:
The second caveat is that unless GW has registered the copyright in each and every miniature you post a photograph of, the most they can do is sue to have the corresponding photograph taken down. And I doubt they have because that usually requires you to send in copies to your country’s copyright bureau (the Library of Congress in the USA). That would be a lot of work for the number of models they produce each year.

Just FYI in the UK and EU copyright is granted automatically, no registration needs to take place, and in fact there is no way of registering a copyright. Which reduces paperwork considerably.

In an increasingly digital and increasingly owned (i.e. Facebook own their digital channel, suckers posting there are just feeding their advertising machine) world, I can see GW taking down photos in the next 5-10 years as copyright infringement in order to own the channels once they've fully invested in digital (recent eBooks is a start). It's similar reasoning as to why they don't advertise.

Also I'll note that in the UK, there is no provision in Fair Dealing (our version of Fair Use) for making private copies of anything (ripping a CD to MP3 is still technically illegal, even if you don't share it). The UK Government has legislation to change the law, but it hasn't been passed yet. Same with use in parody - technically not legal in the UK.

A work of art has a copyright for 70 years. A work of industry (or a design), only has copyright protection for 15 years. As illustrated by the Stormtrooper case (Star Wars Stormtroopers are no longer in copyright in the UK) - where it was argued that the Stormtrooper was not a work of art, but a functional piece of equipment to make a film - which is the work of art. Similarly it could be argued that a Space Marine playing piece is not in itself a work of art, but a functional piece of equipment to make a game, and therefore have been out of copyright for a decade.

Sorry to quote the whole thing, I'm in my phone but there are two points I need to reply too. Copyright is granted automatically everywhere (that has signed the treaties, which includes most of the world) on creation. At least in the USA, you can only sue for money damaged once it's registered.

Also, the term is actually life of the creator plus 70 years for a personal creation. It does seem like the UK makes no distinction for works for hire, which grants a shorter term.
 

Skarsnik

Member
illuminatus":1w3gs9k6 said:
ardyer":1w3gs9k6 said:
illuminatus":1w3gs9k6 said:
ardyer":1w3gs9k6 said:
So, in all honesty, it looks like photographing your painted miniatures is actually copyright infringement.

Well, as I wiser man than me once wrote, "If the law supposes that ... the law is a ass — a idiot."

One mistake I think a lot of people make is that we (and I say "we" on purpose) tend to assume that the law and "morality" are the same.

Not me. Apart from a few common sense things (don't kill, don't steal, don't be a dick etc.) I know that the vast, overwhelming majority of laws are simply there to increase the profits of those that paid the politicians to put them in place.
For example, the US adds about 200,000 new laws per year. How many of those can possibly be related in any way to morality?

200,000 new laws per year? Can you provide some kind of source for that fact? A cursory Google search came back with nothing like that number.
 

ardyer

Member
Warlord Paul":l33851em said:
There were around 40,000 state laws brought in for last year in the U.S. That figure doesn't include Federal laws to my knowledge. If one wanted a headline figure one could multiply the number of state laws brought in by the number of states that used slightly different wording for example, so while 200,000 may well have been legitimately published somewhere it's likely an inflated figure.

No doubt Diogenes would have something to say about a society passing 40,000 laws though. I was ready to explode over New Labour's paltry increase of the U.K. average from 1724 a year to 3506.

You also have counties and cities (and other municipal organisations) passing laws. And you're right about duplication inflating the numbers. There are a bunch of laws, for example the Uniform Commercial Code, that every state has passed, almost word-for-word the same. That would count as 50 laws. Then, you have to factor in that repealing a law counts as a law. And then on top of that, the way we organize our laws inflates the numbers. We have "titles" each subdivided into "statutes." What most people think of a law, e.g., the "America Invents Act," is really lots of laws, many of which just define repeated terms or other administrative stuff.

So that number wouldn't surprise me, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
 
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