Is Current Wh40k a Fascist Propaganda for Kids?

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With the bolter, cleanse the unclean
WE WILL CLEANSE!
With the flamer, purify the unholy
WE WILL PURIFY!
With the chainsword, purge the corrupt
WE WILL PURGE!
With the missile, kill the impure
WE WILL KILL!


To be Unclean, That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Impure, That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Abhorred, That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Reviled, That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Hunted, That is the Mark of the Xenos
To be Purged, That is the fate of the Xenos
To be Cleansed, For that is the fate of all Xenos

There can be no bystanders in the battle for survival. Anyone who will not fight by your side is an enemy you must crush

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise

The Emperor bestows upon us the gift of intolerance.

The Emperor asks only that you hate


Yes it is true what you may have heard whispering amongst the catacombs betwixt the night and nether-night! Why not say it out loud for all to hear. Let the fools doubt and sneer, it matters not. Be proud of your humanity and keep it unsullied and blessed.

This is as my Master told it to me and now I tell it to thee.

There are a billion names of damnation! A billion kinds of things that slither and slime and defile the land and sea and wind. Each thing is a kind of sin spawned by man's evil. And that man is very sinful there are many of these damned things and their power is great.

As the purpose of all things in nature is to increase so it is with the damned. They would we joined them and so they seek to overcome us. In alien forms they assault us. In sleep they come to spread doubt and fear among us. They would corrupt our hearts and see us damned too. Trust them not nor suffer them to live.

For each alien destroyed is a soul freed from eternal bondage. Each mortal alien life extinguished is a human soul raised to glory. Thus our eternal destiny is written in the blood of the alien.

With sword and spear destroy the alien. With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars. With tooth and fist and hammer blows, with axe and shell and poison-bombs, with virus-charge and thermal mines!

Kill them! Kill them! Kill them all!

As my Master told it to me I now tell it to thee that thou shalt tell others in thy turn.



My reasoning is that it's heavily marketed to kids. Rulebooks, promotional materials, etc. are heavily laden with Imperial (fascist) propaganda.
The images of monumental Space Marines fighting Enemies of Mankind, thoughts for the day, various texts glorifying the forces of the Imperium, especially Space Marines.
Of course Space Marines are marketed to kids.

I'm not saying that any of it is intentional, but rather that tone shift and audience shift accidentally created a monster.

By the way, I wish I could know who writes all that stuff. It's awesome!
 

Orjetax

Member
Nah.

I think it's important to have faith in the audience. The audience is not looking at the dystopic dark age in space and saying heck yeah, sign me up for a fascist future, please.
 

Golgfag1

Moderator
And there was me, thinking this was a Forum for grown men talking about toy soldiers :roll: :lol: :roll:, get on programme people. :grin:

Paul/Golgfag1
 
As Rick Priestley once mentioned (should start to save those interview links...), the Warhammer 40'000 setting was intentionally constructed as a thought experiment from the very start: What happens when the ideals we moderns strive for, are made into weaknesses and liabilities in a harsh reality? It's turning the dreams for the future on its own head, and run with the catastrophe as a medium for telling stories. Having the sudden mass emergence of psykers at the very end of the Dark Age of Technology leading to tolerant and more advanced worlds falling to the depravations of the Warp while only intolerant and backward human planets survived, is a prime example of this.

People often point to the Imperium being Fascist, but it's so much more than just that dead fad resurrected in space. Calling it Fascist is just too narrow in scope, and often it is also a mark of lacking historical education (though not in this instance, gentlemen!), i.e. "heard of Hitler but not of the Hussites". The developers of 40k have always drawn upon the most depraved parts of human history, and obviously Western history since it's a game by Westerners largely for Westerners (I bet you'll see other sources used for fantasy/science fantasy whenever and if these trends in fiction catch on in, say, West Africa or China, with these cultures potentially producing their own prominent authors drawing upon native traditions and history much like Tolkien did). One could likewise narrow down the scope and call the Imperium Communist, what with the Emperor's anti-religious conquest of the galaxy essentially making him into space Stalin, or pointing to the Commissars and rewriting of historical documents in the Administratum (see Soviet removal of founder figures from old photographies once they fell out of grace with Stalin; which very much inspired Orwell's Truth Ministry, which 40k obviously has gobbled up). One could also narrow down the scope too much and say that the Imperium is everything fanatical and violent with the Christian church, or all religious institutions ever in existence. Or say that the late Roman Empire of antiquity, with its obsession over control and taxation in the face of disaster and invasion - and its religious conflicts, oppression and draconian laws - has been moved into space. All of these statements hold some truth, but they're not the whole picture. For one thing, historical real world Fascists and National Socialists were a bunch of sissies compared to the fictive Imperium of mankind, and the same goes for comparing the exaggerated Imperium to the most bloody phases of Communist regimes during the 20th century.

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."

40k is a fantastic smörgåsbord setting where almost anything fits. The Imperium draws upon the worst excesses of totalitarian, authoritarian regimes, and those include, but are not limited to, historical Fascism.

Now, one undeniable aspect of the success of Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40'000 have been them springing up in a time of rapid change and disconnect with our ancient past, complete with this past's wars and horrors. To modern man of the wealthy nations, living comfortably and soft in a stressful business world where peace and love is preached, it is undeniably thrilling to take a break and visit such a harsh universe of fanatical hatred and cruel warfare as escapism in the imagination. Not because one wants this world to turn darker and more violent, but because it is one taste among many which our minds wishes to savour. Our minds are broad, and should be allowed to remain so, without casting dubious suspicions upon the roaming of the mind and its creative outlet and consumption. You'll not be surprised that the demand for dystopian fictive settings is way lower in countries who actually experience much of the horror, poverty and depravation that we, in general, do not face. Likewise, talking about wider tastes, I always found the claims that the optimistic Tau don't fit into the 40k setting to be ludicrous: That galaxy has always been portrayed as wildly vast, and having one up-and-coming species as a contrast to the death and doom factions that otherwise get the spotlight, is a brilliant stroke.

I agree one should have faith in the audience, and not draw too hard upon the themes used in fiction. Viewing Warhammer 40'000 as Fascist propaganda is comparable to viewing Star Wars as Communist propaganda, and on that cycle goes. Break out the paintbrush instead. ;)

DiaHhFS.jpg
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
AranaszarSzuur":12sxuubn said:
I guess I'll need to wait for Professor Zhu, for some interesting reply.

Ahh, sorry mate, I'm not all that interested in modern 40k. It's an interesting proposition tho' and not the first time it's been raised - I would say this - don't just look at the Imperium as a 'model' for how a fascist society works - including its anti-modern stance, but look at how fascism defines its enemies and look at the other factions in the 40k universe. Read up on modern fascist thinkers, like Guillaume* Faye - Archeofuturism and Why We Fight, the stuff Steve Bannon reads, not Mein Kampf or historical fascism, and consider what a science fiction universe might look like if it were based in this philosophy, then conclude whether it fits or not.

I will post this tho:

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Other than the general pose, the hands and the knees are probably the biggest tell. But what does it meeeeeean? lol!

*pun detector working...
 
Zhu Bajie":3r8k0xej said:
DXHL991WAAAxjIR.jpg


Other than the general pose, the hands and the knees are probably the biggest tell. But what does it meeeeeean? lol!

*pun detector working...

and just for added triple irony with a strawberry on top, he appears to be holding on to a pair of fasces. :grin:
 

Gallivantes

Member
AranaszarSzuur,

Thanks for posting the question. Here is my view on the matter.

Do I think 40K is filled with propagandistic-sounding messages? Without a doubt. The long list of quotes you posted certainly illustrate notions of intolerance, totalitarianism, oppression, etc etc etc. Do I think 40K is propaganda? Not really, neither by definition, intent nor in effect. Allow me to elaborate.

Starting with definition, I think your question has a built-in problem in the way you have phrased it. What I mean by that is this:

With your headline question being "Is Current Wh40k a Fascist Propaganda for Kids?", consider that further down the post you also included
AranaszarSzuur":7rfdys7m said:
I'm not saying that any of it is intentional, but rather that tone shift and audience shift accidentally created a monster.
Then I think you have really answered your own question. Regardless of whichever dictionary you reference, it will boil down the meaning of the word propaganda to be: a message, often exaggerated, sent out to deliberately further one's own cause or hurt an opponent's.

The key thing to note here is that propaganda is deliberate. If, as you say, it's accidental, it doesn't actually fulfill the criteria for being propaganda. It may look and sound like propaganda. It may have the same effect as propaganda would have had, but it isn't in fact propaganda. It's an important distinction to take into account. It may look like a duck, it may swim like a duck, it may quack like a duck, but in this case it's not actually a duck — because we have a perfect technical description of what a duck is and it fails to fulfill one of the criteria. One of my pet peeves is when a discussion is marred by a confusion of technical terms leading to disagreement, so I hope you'll forgive me for laying this down. After all, your question contains the term, so let's all be clear on what that actually means.

Oh look, some Black Orcs


Now if you think I am dismissing your question on a technicality then hear this: I think I see the point you're really trying to make and I am not ignoring it. I am not just waving a dictionary in your face to not have to deal with said question. So did the tone shift and audience shift accidentally create a monster? Sure, we can call it that if you like. Some kind of degradation/dilution/diffusion/simplification of the original creators' vision. We haven't ended up with a more poignant, nuanced and insightful 40K after these thirty odd years, I dare say. If that was the idea you wanted to test, I second your motion.
But we can only call it that if we allow ourselves to use rather colourful wording. I have to look past the rather dramatic surface (using terms like "created a monster" I mean) and isolate the pragmatical part of your statement in order to do so. Has it changed? I think that's obvious. But when you are talking about "monsters" in the context of discussing "fascist propaganda" I think you place yourself on rather thin ice with the way you use the word. Fascism, as I'm sure we all know, is something that has been the driver of some rather monstrous events in our recent history. In that context, is 40K a "monster" that in any way, if only partial, adds much fuel to that fire? I'm reluctant to agree with you that a monster has been created if this is the context we are discussing it in. However, if all you intended to say by that was that the gestalt of what 40K "is" has dramatically changed over time and that it has little to none actual practical bearing on the socio-political state of our societies and the mindsets of our kids, then I will happily agree.

Carrying on with the idea of intent, do I think there is much intent from the creators' side to have any of this function as propaganda? First of all I think we'd all have to agree that how can any of us really know? If that was the case it would never be admitted by the culprits. That would of course mean Rick Priestly lied in his interview, and anyone else who's concurred with him did so too. People do sometimes lie, that is true, however I have no particular reason to think Mr Priestly did so nor would I want to drag his good name in the dirt on this esteemed forum. So then, likelihood would be anybody's only way to gauge this issue. How likely do I find it that political propaganda is a noteworthy driving cause of it all? Well, given that "for business" and "for personal enjoyment" already stand as two strong reasons to make 40K, I find it far-fetched to say the least to go look for a third reason (political agenda) to explain why any of it has come about. They are not mutually exclusive but if politics are in there in part I still think it's vastly eclipsed by the other two. Inspired by real historical events that carry political significance? Undoubtedly. It's par for the course for skilled creative professionals to anchor their works in reality. Actively pushing a political agenda? That has never been a prerequisite for incorporating these themes. So what about intent? No, smacks of illuminati and the moon landing conspiracy if you ask me - granted that we are all just guessing here, myself included.

Oh look, some gobbos


What about effect then? What if it was never intended to be propaganda, but still affects the minds of people? Well I couldn't have said it better than when
Orjetax":7rfdys7m said:
The audience is not looking at the dystopic dark age in space and saying heck yeah, sign me up for a fascist future, please.
Or maybe I can, what the heck. One could argue that this is exaggerating the issue and that there is still some subtler, yet still important effect at play. Now Mr Orjetax's argument is floundering helplessly on the ground, because it was only covering the ridiculous extreme end of the spectrum and is no good if we are to take this debate seriously. Sorry Orjetax, I fear your wit is your undoing and that you are no match for the savvier orators.
Seriously though, I share Orjetax's notion on all levels here, great and small. Wondering if morally sensitive contexts in entertainment media actually has an effect on people's minds (and crucially, actions) I would fall back on the known cases of recent history. I am talking about the controversies surrounding rental VHS movie violence. Satan worship related heavy metal. Rpgs, video games. We have a slew of cases from the seventies til now where society was in turmoil and experts debated in court about the psychological effect of these phenomena, allegedly brought on by varieties of popular media. Virtually all of it has been debunked, through scientific research and the healthy distance a few years worth of hindsight bring when things aren't so new, scary and confusing anymore. In light of this I find it far-fetched to think that whatever practical effect 40K has on steering our societies in a more fascist direction, I am convinced it is utterly marginal. Or in other words, I do not think 40K is fascist propaganda for kids, neither by definition, in intent, nor effect.

I do think it's a fun hobby where anyone, regardless of age, can indulge in a bit of escapism and that it allows a safe, harmless place for people to explore thoughts around controversial themes, as humans tend to have a need to do.
 

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Shaun

Member
I suppose it is, yes. I guess we neednt have fear for peoples health and wellbeing until they start linking it to our governmental systems...
 

lenihan

Moderator
I think the danger with grimdark settings isn't that they are desirable - as Orjetax said earlier, have faith in the audience, it's not as though what's being served up is a seductive vision! For me, the problem is that they can make you prone to cynicism. There's a kind of hopelessness that this sense of the future breeds. Doesn't matter what you do, it always inevitably ends up as a totalitarian hell, nobody has any truly good motives, etc. etc. For me, that's why it's important to have heroes and counter-narratives. I'm not in a position to say whether the modern 40k universe has those because I don't dabble in it much to be honest.
 
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