AranaszarSzuur,
Thanks for posting the question. Here is my view on the matter.
Do I think 40K is filled with propagandistic-sounding messages? Without a doubt. The long list of quotes you posted certainly illustrate notions of intolerance, totalitarianism, oppression, etc etc etc. Do I think 40K
is propaganda? Not really, neither by definition, intent nor in effect. Allow me to elaborate.
Starting with definition, I think your question has a built-in problem in the way you have phrased it. What I mean by that is this:
With your headline question being "Is Current Wh40k a Fascist Propaganda for Kids?", consider that further down the post you also included
AranaszarSzuur":7rfdys7m said:
I'm not saying that any of it is intentional, but rather that tone shift and audience shift accidentally created a monster.
Then I think you have really answered your own question. Regardless of whichever dictionary you reference, it will boil down the meaning of the word propaganda to be: a message, often exaggerated, sent out to deliberately further one's own cause or hurt an opponent's.
The key thing to note here is that propaganda is deliberate. If, as you say, it's accidental, it doesn't actually fulfill the criteria for being propaganda. It may look and sound like propaganda. It may have the same effect as propaganda would have had, but it isn't in fact propaganda. It's an important distinction to take into account. It may look like a duck, it may swim like a duck, it may quack like a duck, but in this case it's not actually a duck — because we have a perfect technical description of what a duck is and it fails to fulfill one of the criteria. One of my pet peeves is when a discussion is marred by a confusion of technical terms leading to disagreement, so I hope you'll forgive me for laying this down. After all, your question contains the term, so let's all be clear on what that actually means.
Oh look, some Black Orcs
Now if you think I am dismissing your question on a technicality then hear this: I think I see the point you're really trying to make and I am not ignoring it. I am not just waving a dictionary in your face to not have to deal with said question. So did the tone shift and audience shift accidentally create a monster? Sure, we can call it that if you like. Some kind of degradation/dilution/diffusion/simplification of the original creators' vision. We haven't ended up with a more poignant, nuanced and insightful 40K after these thirty odd years, I dare say. If that was the idea you wanted to test, I second your motion.
But we can only call it that if we allow ourselves to use rather colourful wording. I have to look past the rather dramatic surface (using terms like "created a monster" I mean) and isolate the pragmatical part of your statement in order to do so. Has it changed? I think that's obvious. But when you are talking about "monsters" in the context of discussing "fascist propaganda" I think you place yourself on rather thin ice with the way you use the word. Fascism, as I'm sure we all know, is something that has been the driver of some rather monstrous events in our recent history. In that context, is 40K a "monster" that in any way, if only partial, adds much fuel to that fire? I'm reluctant to agree with you that a monster has been created if this is the context we are discussing it in. However, if all you intended to say by that was that the gestalt of what 40K "is" has dramatically changed over time and that it has little to none actual practical bearing on the socio-political state of our societies and the mindsets of our kids, then I will happily agree.
Carrying on with the idea of intent, do I think there is much intent from the creators' side to have any of this function as propaganda? First of all I think we'd all have to agree that how can any of us really know? If that was the case it would never be admitted by the culprits. That would of course mean Rick Priestly lied in his interview, and anyone else who's concurred with him did so too. People do sometimes lie, that is true, however I have no particular reason to think Mr Priestly did so nor would I want to drag his good name in the dirt on this esteemed forum. So then, likelihood would be anybody's only way to gauge this issue. How likely do I find it that political propaganda is a noteworthy driving cause of it all? Well, given that "for business" and "for personal enjoyment" already stand as two strong reasons to make 40K, I find it far-fetched to say the least to go look for a third reason (political agenda) to explain why any of it has come about. They are not mutually exclusive but if politics are in there in part I still think it's vastly eclipsed by the other two. Inspired by real historical events that carry political significance? Undoubtedly. It's par for the course for skilled creative professionals to anchor their works in reality. Actively pushing a political agenda? That has never been a prerequisite for incorporating these themes. So what about intent? No, smacks of illuminati and the moon landing conspiracy if you ask me - granted that we are all just guessing here, myself included.
Oh look, some gobbos
What about effect then? What if it was never intended to be propaganda, but still affects the minds of people? Well I couldn't have said it better than when
Orjetax":7rfdys7m said:
The audience is not looking at the dystopic dark age in space and saying heck yeah, sign me up for a fascist future, please.
Or maybe I can, what the heck. One could argue that this is exaggerating the issue and that there is still some subtler, yet still important effect at play. Now Mr Orjetax's argument is floundering helplessly on the ground, because it was only covering the ridiculous extreme end of the spectrum and is no good if we are to take this debate seriously. Sorry Orjetax, I fear your wit is your undoing and that you are no match for the savvier orators.
Seriously though, I share Orjetax's notion on all levels here, great and small. Wondering if morally sensitive contexts in entertainment media actually has an effect on people's minds (and crucially, actions) I would fall back on the known cases of recent history. I am talking about the controversies surrounding rental VHS movie violence. Satan worship related heavy metal. Rpgs, video games. We have a slew of cases from the seventies til now where society was in turmoil and experts debated in court about the psychological effect of these phenomena, allegedly brought on by varieties of popular media. Virtually all of it has been debunked, through scientific research and the healthy distance a few years worth of hindsight bring when things aren't so new, scary and confusing anymore. In light of this I find it far-fetched to think that whatever practical effect 40K has on steering our societies in a more fascist direction, I am convinced it is utterly marginal. Or in other words, I do not think 40K is fascist propaganda for kids, neither by definition, in intent, nor effect.
I do think it's a fun hobby where anyone, regardless of age, can indulge in a bit of escapism and that it allows a safe, harmless place for people to explore thoughts around controversial themes, as humans tend to have a need to do.