The Heroquest conundrum

This thread http://forum.oldhammer.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=944 has opened up again a problem I've been struggling with almost all my life. Nope, not deadly envy or critical flatulence, the problem of

HEROQUEST PROTOTYPES!

As a small boy I got Heroquest for Christmas. I noticed slight differences between the figures and pictures on the box, why weren't mine on nice bases instead of plastic rectangles that obscured the feet? Why was the Barbarian posed differently? Why were the Chaos Warriors much thinner?

When I rediscovered Heroquest later on the internet had come along and I discovered that there were prototype models which were different from the plastic figures in the box. But I still don't understand, maybe someone can offer advice,

Why are there only slight but very definite differences between the prototypes and the released figures? Surely they weren't all resculpted slightly differently, yet this was before the age of being able to scan in a metal figure and alter it digitally wasn't it? Besides, some of the changes imply a resculpt rather than slight tweaking. What exactly was the process which went between the metal masters and the plastic production run? How come the Space Crusade figures could be much closer to the prototypes and have slottabases when the Heroquest ones couldn't?

It's all so confusing.

OK I can help a little with this. In fact I have some notes from a conversation with Bryan that I was going to put into a blog post on this very subject.

I dont have my notes with me so I'll have to go a little from memory. Bryan told me that the sculpting of the plastics were initially done on 6-ups (I think) which was quite a laborious process, and so the task was divided among several people per figure. I guess they were working from sketches or descriptions.

The metal figures would have been made for promotional materials such as the box art and was a quicker process - I also believe each metal figure would have been sculpted by a single individual.

So you can see that the figure would be similar but not exactly the same. Sorry my explanation is a bit hazy but like I said I'll try to put up a better one at some point.

Thanks... What's a 6 up?

Fimm McCool":1oy9ijle said:

Thanks... What's a 6 up?

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A miniature 6 times larger than the intended miniature, there had to be this be because at the time they did use a manual pantograph to make the molds, the standard size is now 3-UP (3 times larger than the intended piece) even if digital scanner are able to work 1:1, ie scan a miniature directly at the intended size, it allows to have more details on the finished products.

I hope this is clear.

Fimm McCool":8i7ky4mi said:

Thanks... What's a 6 up?

Click to expand...

An inferior drink to a 7UP

treps":34mhy9xw said:

Fimm McCool":34mhy9xw said:

Thanks... What's a 6 up?

Click to expand...

A miniature 6 times larger than the intended miniature, there had to be this be because at the time they did use a manual pantograph to make the molds, the standard size is now 3-UP (3 times larger than the intended piece) even if digital scanner are able to work 1:1, ie scan a miniature directly at the intended size, it allows to have more details on the finished products.

I hope this is clear.

Click to expand...

Makes sense. Interesting then that the differences between the plastics and metal prototypes are so few... and how come the 1:1 sculpted metal figures are nicer looking than the sculpted-oversized-scaled-down plastics? Is there a chance the prototypes were in turn used to create the larger figures, leading to only slight differences? Whilst we're on the subject, just what was the production process like in the 80s? What did the manual pantograph work on? Did make the mould directly or just scale down the figure into a block of something?

The sculptors were used to sculpt at the 1:1 scale, so ti was probably easier for them to maintain proportion and attention to detail.

And injection moulding of the time wasn't as efficient as today, so you couldn't have the same level of details, the process are now totally computer based and allow to make what we see today made by GW.

Regarding the pantograph, and injection plastic moulding generally, have a look here : http://www.scribd.com/doc/6715105/Plast ... Handbook-1 (figures 3.2§ and 3.27 shows a pantograph and you'll learn all the techincs of that era) you'll see that it was a very complicated process at the time and that's why molds were costing a lot of money. Basically someone was moving a tool along the original figure (the 6-up) and the movement was negatively reproduced scaled 6 times down by drill on the metal block at the other hand.

The introduction of automated process (mainly 3D scan and precision routers) has allowed to reduce the time and the cost drastically while allowing to do stuff you wouldn't have imagined 15 or 20 years ago...

Thanks for this, Ive often wondered about space crusade having the same thing-mystery solved

I think I can add a little information here. I have had in my possession metal 'prototypes for the Riders of Rohan and Uruk Hai which were only sold in plastic originally in the Two Towers box set. I also have some metal Elves from the Fellowship of the ring boxed set and metal castings of the Goblins from the Skull Pass set. It was explained to me by my source that box art and other promotional needs necessitated painted examples of the models that would be in the boxes but the plastic production lagged behind for technical reasons. Sculptors were therefore asked to create 'normal' 1:1 greens of the anticipated plastic models and these were then cast up for the Eavy Metal team to paint.

In the case of the Rohan and Uruks, there were quite a few minor differences between the metals and the eventual plastics, not least of which was the bulk and height of the metals. The Elves are not so obviously different apart from being slightly more bulky castings. I don't know how the Skull Pass Goblins compare as I've never owned them in plastic and I don't collect WFB anyway but I think they are pretty close. (the goblins are available for trade for Rogue Trader and early Chaos Daemon figures by the way )

This seems to have been common practise until the Plastic production either became slicker, or someone planned the timing of everything a little better. As far as I am aware, metal prototypes were not made for the 3rd Lord of the Rings boxed game so that gives you some idea of the time frame when this practise ceased.

Again, what a tribute to the sculptors that the prototypes and completed plastuc minis are so similar.

Remember the original Space Marine plastic sprues for Epic? Well, this is the 6up: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniature ... _scale.jpg

I do remember that appearing on ebay a few years ago. Seemed to remember it going for about £100

I meant to add that the term '6 ups' doesn't ring quite right with me. I have seen loads of the plastic master models on various visits to the studio ( sadly several years ago now). They were everywhere and were always referred to as '3 ups'.

I will do some research amongst old contacts of mine and see if I can clarify these questions further.

I do remember when I was quite young asking one of the store staff how anyone sculpted figures that small (28mm) and he said that "they don't, nobody can sculpt that detail at that size. They sculpt several times larger and the mouldmakers shrink the models for casting". Turns out he was not entirely right, there are plenty of people who cna sculpt luscious detail at 28mm, and for those who can't there's now 3D printing!

fifarsing":3vtq3l80 said:

Not quite ready yet

to become their Destiny,
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Buy RS Gold and Runescape 2007 Gold

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Nurse! Nurse!

He's out of bed again!