Is this lead rot?

PantherV

Member
I added this to the end of the previous topic on lead rot but I'm sure it will be missed there. I recently got this chap off ebay and am unsure as to if it has the dreaded lead rot! I have soaked it in Dettol and given it a scrub with soap and water. The lead seems to be breaking apart from itself. Has anyone seen this before or know what it is? any info would be much appreciated. I can fix it with putty but if its rot then I'd rather just sling it!

Tom
 

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Zhu Bajie

Member
I'm not a chemist!

It's not what I'd traditionally consider "lead rot", which produces the characteristic white crystals - Lead(II) oxide

However, it looks like a combination of Lead(II,IV) oxide, causing the orange discolouration and Lead(IV) oxide causing the black pitted surface.

I'm guessing the range of types of oxidisation is due to the 'dirty' sources of lead used by Citadel back in the day, mentioned by dieselmonkey - old car batteries etc. which already had impurities, but possibly not noticeable when first cast up. I'm going to guess that the cracking is due to different 'types' of lead crystallising at different rates.

Second to this... Dettol is mildly basic (Ph 9.5 acording to the MDS), and lead reacts to base chemicals so it's possibly eating the surface a little bit.

Personally I'd chuck it. Or seal it in an airtight transparent container, hide it in the shed and check on its progress every 3 months in the name of science!
 
I've certainly seen it before, and whilst it's not classic 'powdery' lead rot, it is a degenerative condition (the cracks get worse/wider), and I'd bin it, just to be on the safe side.
 

PantherV

Member
Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated! I was leaning towards slinging it but wanted a second opinion. Looks like its destined for the big lead pile in the sky :(

Cheers,

Tom
 

Padre

Member
Paint him! It could be a chaos mutation. Or the result of some magical curse. You could have blood seeping from the fissures. (It might work.)
 
ramshackle_curtis":28rhvbbq said:
Scrub it, dry it, paint it. Lead rot produces an acid, which if you neutralise and clean it will go no further!

I've seen this 'cracking' problem before. The problem/chemical reaction seems to actually be inside the model, and it pushes out, making the cracks wider over time. Eventually it just falls apart. It's impossible to clean all the way down inside the cracks.
 
About five years ago I had (what I thought at the time) was lead rot in an old Jes Goodwin Ogre. It probably wasn't, but it prompted me to do some research online about it anyway. The best, and only, information I came across was on antique restoration websites. I can't for the life of me remember the site or the specific solution they recommended to stop the degradation process, but they did inform me of what caused it. It's the natural acid in some woods, which is quite popular for furniture production e.g. bookshelves......which is what a lot of us gamers store our minis on. I stopped sitting my minis on wooden surfaces after I learnt this.

I do remember though, that It was a type of acid that I used to "clean" it. I think it may have been sulfuric or hydrochloric? I'm not sure, but it was bloody strong acid that they recommended, albeit diluted quite a lot with water. I soaked it for about 5-10 mins I think, then rinsed it in clean water.

Like I said at the start, I'm pretty sure it wasn't lead rot....hard white crystals had formed in some areas, that kept coming back a few weeks after cleaning each time.

After I carried out the cleaning process I painted him up and he's still fine. I'm actually considering stripping him again for a repaint, coz I'm not happy with how he turned out. I'll be interested to see if he's still ok or not in those areas that I mentioned.


I'm not sure if I helped with your query? All I can advise you to do is have a look around on antique restoration websites.....they know their sht :grin:
 
I recently did some research after a mild panic regarding what I thought might have been leadrot- it was either that or degraded milliput or remaining auto primer on an old Mithril Smaug from the early 80's. I cleaned it long before finding Simple Green in a turpentine and it had been laying around in a box for about 8 years.

The research lead to the lead oxidising and reacting to formaldehyde in the adhesives used in joinery and plywood. This leaches slowly and causes issues- imagine the potential issues to us humans. Also a damp environment can apparently accelerate these problems.

I followed a process from theMiniaturesPage.com where I soaked and scrubbed in vinegar and then agitated in a water baking soda solution to neutralise it. There are mixed opinions on this- it would be good to hear from a chemist. I use a lead white when oil painting and spoke with Michael Harding (one of the top producers of artists oils) about his 'stack white'- He uses a traditional Dutch process which involves lead, vinegar and burying with horse manure to achieve the powdery pigment. I had my concerns and he seemed to think that the lead wasn't an issue if you use safe practices and the pigment in the paint couldn't really breach your skin unless ingested.

Obviously lead oxide on our minis is super toxic.

After cleaning the parts were dried well then bagged up separately. For a couple of other suspect RT marines these got the treatment then primed well with Tamiya fine gray surface primer- even the slotta tabs. Hopefully that all provides a good seal to halt any issues. I read about some foundrys using old batteries for lead and scrap bits and pieces- who knows what impurities are floating around in some of the old pieces. There were also reports of blister packs reacting to older lead minis.

I now also store minis with the desiccant silica gel packs now to be super safe.

Mind you, none of the aforementioned pieces had anything close to the fissures on that Gobbo- just a fine light powdery surface with mottled dark discolouring.
Speaking of lead, has anyone been tested for lead blood level or is that best not asked?
 

Fimm McCool

Member
Is there a chronological cut-off point to miniatures getting lead rot? By which I don't mean "if it hasn't had rot in 30 years it won't ever develop it" but more "we started using better quality lead sources for our casting at this point". Would, for example, a mini from 1991 have less chance of developing the rot than one from 1985? Obviously we're talking pre-white metal here!
 

jprp

Member
NEVER throw mini`s away (you can send them to me), gentle clean with warm water, PAINT (soon) and most importantly Heavy varnish. I have lots of early mini`s and they don`t seem to get any worse once they are painted and varnished, possibly weapon hafts might get brittle but no surface deterioration.
 
Here is the link regarding the military ship builders and lead rot...
http://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/War...els/Lead-Corrosion-in-Exhibition-Ship-Models/

From the article-

Although wood is by far the major culprit, recent investigations have identified a large number of materials which also add to the acetic and formic acid exposure of lead fittings Potentially destructive materials used by ship model builders include:(15)

PVA glue or "white glue"
Contact cement
Plastic wood
Latex varnish
Natural varnish
Polyurethane varnish
Tung oil varnish
Linseed oil varnish
Enamel paint
Oil-based paint
Alkyd paint
Lacquer paint
Varathane paint
Oil-based stain
Wool (some kinds)
Styrofoam
Vinyl Wallpaper (some types)
Velvet
Burlap
Rust inhibitors
Polyesters (some types)
Plastics (some types)
Dyes used in fabrics (some types)
Jute
"Flame-proofed" fabrics and wood
Products treated for rot and/or insect resistance
Products containing ammonia
Products that smell like vinegar
Low quality paper and cardboard
Vermiculite
Pebbles and sand (unwashed)
Silicon RTV adhesive: tub and tile caulks (some types)
Cast acrylic plastic or "plexiglass" (suspected)

The materials listed above are not in any particular order. They are general in nature and do not classify into groupings of high, medium, or low risk for lead corrosion. Some brands of the same material may be more or less harmful than other brands. As manufacturers change their formulas from time to time, items may fall into or out of the potentially harmful list. The creation of acetic and formic acids by these materials is a more complicated process than the emission of acids from woods and there is some disagreement among scientists whether some products, latex paint for example, release acid or not. Types of plastics found not to produce acids include polycarbonates, Mylar, and Nylon.
 

Padre

Member
Thousands upon thousands of figures, all painted by me, stored in 40 boxes and draws - and all painted in enamels. Aaaargh! Well, at least the plastic ones will survive. No, wait, my (older) airfix plastic figures have all crumbled from some sort of plastic rot. And they were painted in enamels too. Aaaarghaaaaaaghhaagh!
 

symphonicpoet

Moderator
Lots of older enamels, plenty of PVA glue, and virtually everything sealed with a matte varnish of one kind or another, most of which are doubtless also enamels. I suppose we're all in trouble at some point, at least with the older lead stuff. Makes me glad of the switch to "Britannia" metal.
 

A Badger

Member
The 'classic' white powder rot is Lead Carbonate, a compound of lead, acetic acid and CO2. In certain environmental conditions (esp. high humidity) materials like woods, cardboard etc off-gas - if inadequately ventilated (sealed in a box / blister or cabinet) the mini is effectively bathing in a corrosive oxidising vapour. Apparently the white powder is amongst the sweetest things known to man. I know you're tempted, but Ice Bear says don't eat it.

The dull grey / black bloom / cracking & 'sprouting' is (I think) lead formate. In similar conditions to those above, where the miniature is exposed to formic acid - potentially in the form of plastics / paints / plywood / smoking / vehicle exhaust etc. It looks similar to naturally occuring cerussite. I've seen miniatures that are have completely succumbed to this (ie no shiny metal under the dull corroded exterior) and crumble to a grey dust. This powder doesn't look quite as appetising either.

Dry, warm, well ventilated would be my watch-words. Sadly I fear your Night Goblin is beyond salvation and may have swung his last ball.

Incidentally I've seen this green and yellow discolouration in this second type of 'rot' - I assume from impurities in the metals?
 

Tubehead

Member
I had the exact condition in your photo there happen to one of my unpainted Thousand Sons marines about 1992. My cat peed on a table upon which this miniature was the only object. The fig was saturated. Naturally I washed it off, but I put the fig on a shelf and within a month this stuff began forming all over it, head to toe. I moved the fig to a nook in the basement and years passed... It slowly degenerated into a small mass of yellowish-white fissure-covered crystalline stuff.
I'm certain the cause was the highly acidic cat output. Wish I had taken a picture of the fig as an example. It was thrown out years ago.
 
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