Coat d'Arms (old Citadel Colour) Paints Thread

I would like to start a thread about the ORIGINAL Citadel Colour paint pots, and the merits of the current Coat d'Arms paint range, which is effectively the same paints in the same old containers.

My hope is that this thread can become an information repository for Oldhammer enthusiasts and the general hobby community.

I am very excited to collect a set of paint pots that match the original range as closely as possible, not only in color, but in consistency, longevity, and even smell. I am ordering several of the colors from the Coat d'Arms range right now, and even creating new old-style "Citadel Colour" pot labels with the original color names on them (Which should tell you how nuts I must be about this topic.).



I UNDERSTAND that other paint ranges could be used to emulate certain colors in the original range, but I'd like this thread to focus on the merits and possibilities within the Coat d'Arms range.

To begin with, I'll include links to some of the most important resources about these colors.

The "Archaeopainting" article posted on the Realm of Chaos blog back in 2012 is a definitive and indispensable introduction to this topic.
http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2012/09/retro-painting-and-modelling-or.html

Next is the UK business which currently supplies and distributes the original product as relabeled "Coat d'Arms"; Black Hat Miniatures. It is still manufactured by HMG Paints Ltd. in Manchester.
http://www.blackhat.co.uk/product-category/coat-darms-paints/coat-darms-paints-fantasy-range/

Thirdly, is the current U.S.A. importer/distributor of the Coat d'Arms range; Scale Creep Miniatures.
http://www.scalecreep.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2501_2502

Another good resource is the Paint Range Compatibility Chart posted at Dakka-Dakka.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Paint+Range+Compatibility+Chart

A more direct Compatibility Chart can be found at Hive World Terra, which in turn got it from a defunct page on Gladiator Games.
https://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/Article/view_CoatDArmsConversionChart.html

Though it does not include all of the alternate names (exe: Titilating Pink) it is a chart worth reproducing here:
Coat d'Arms

Product Codes.....................Coat d'Arms paint names.......Old GW paint names..............New dumbass GW paint names

101................................. White.............................Skull White........................White Scar
102................................. Black.............................Chaos Black........................Abaddon Black
103................................. Sun Yellow.......................Sunburst Yellow...................Flash Gitz Yellow
104................................. Blood Red........................Blood Red..........................Evil Sunz Scarlet
105................................. Flame Orange...................Fiery Orange.......................Not available
106................................. Enchanted Silver................Mithril Silver.......................Runefang Steel
107................................. Bright Gold.......................Shinning Gold......................Gehenna's Gold
108................................. Goblin Green.....................Goblin Green......................Warboss Green
109................................. Chainmail.........................Chainmail..........................Ironbreaker
110................................. Royal Blue........................Regal Blue.........................Kantor Blue
111................................. Dark Elf Green...................Dark Angel Green..................Caliban Green
112................................. Bone...............................Bleached Bone.....................Ushabti Bone
113................................. Magic Metal......................Tin Bitz.............................Warplock Bronze
114................................. Wizard Blue.......................Enchanted Blue....................Caledor Sky
115................................. Tanned Flesh.....................Bronzed Flesh.......................Not available
116................................. Barbarian Leather................Snakebite Leather.................Balor Brown
117................................. High Elf Blue......................Lightning Bolt Blue................Not available
118................................. Poison Purple......................Liche Purple.......................Xereus Purple
119................................. Rat Brown..........................Vermin Fur/Vermin Brown.......Skrag Brown
120................................. Hairy Brown........................Bestial Brown.....................Mournfang Brown
121................................. Bogey Green.......................Snot Green.........................Warpstone Glow
122................................. Elven Grey..........................Elf Grey............................Not available
123................................. Elven Flesh..........................Elf Flesh...........................Kislev Flesh
124................................. Dwarven Flesh.....................Dwarf Flesh........................Ratskin
125................................. Putrid Green........................Rotting Flesh......................Nurgling Green
126................................. Festering Brown...................Bubonic Brown....................Zamesi Desert
127................................. Enchanted Blue.....................Polished Blue......................Not available
128................................. Enchanted Green...................Glistening Green..................Not available
129................................. Vampire Red........................Crimson Gore/Red Gore.........Wazdakka Red
130................................. Bilious Brown........................Vomit Brown......................Tau Light Ochre
131................................. Brass..................................Brazen Brass......................Not available
132................................. Aquamarine..........................Hawk Turquoise..................Sotek Green
133................................. Ink wash - Flesh.....................Flesh wash.........................Not available
134................................. Ink wash - Green....................Orc flesh wash....................Not available
135................................. Ink wash - Blue......................Blue wash ..........................Not available
136................................. Ink wash - Brown....................Brown wash........................Not available
137................................. Ink wash - Chestnut.................Chestnut wash.....................Not available
138................................. Ink wash - Red.......................Red wash...........................Not available
141................................. Grey Primer..........................Smelly Primer......................Not available
142................................. Gun Metal.............................Boltgun Metal......................Leadbelcher
143................................. Dwarven Bronze......................Dwarf Bronze.......................Hashut Copper
144................................. Shocking Pink........................Tentacle Pink......................Not available
145................................. Ruby Red.............................Ruby Red............................Not available
146................................. Dusky Yellow.........................Bad Moon Yellow...................Not available
147................................. Burnt Orange.........................Blazing Orange.....................Troll Slayer Orange
148................................. Marine Blue...........................Ultramarine Blue..................Altdorf Guard Blue
149................................. Angel Red.............................Blood Angel Red...................Not available
150................................. Shadow Grey..........................Shadow Grey.......................Not available
151................................. Lupin Grey............................Space Wolves Grey................Fenrisian Grey
152................................. Scorpion Green.......................Scorpion Green....................Moot Green
153................................. Ink wash - Armour...................Armour wash........................Not available
154................................. Ink wash - Black......................Black wash..........................Not available
155................................. Angel Green...........................Dark Angel Green..................Caliban Green
156................................. Leprous Brown........................Leprous Brown......................Not available
157................................. Warlock Purple.......................Warlock Purple.....................Screamer Pink
158................................. Jade Green............................Jade Green..........................Not available
159................................. Golden Yellow.........................Golden Yellow.....................Yriel Yellow
160................................. Amethyst Purple ......................Amethyst Purple....................Not available
161................................. Deadly Nightshade....................Deadly Nightshade.................Not available
162................................. Nauseous Blue.........................Nauseous Blue.......................Not available
163................................. Beaten Copper.........................Beaten Copper......................Not available
164................................. Emerald Green.........................Emerald Green.....................Not available
165................................. Hawk Turquoise.......................Hawk Turquoise.....................Not available
166................................. Fester Blue.............................Festering Blue.......................Not available
167................................. Hideous Blue...........................Hideous Blue........................Not available


I've encountered a few other resources and perspectives scattered about the web, but thought to list these primary ones here.

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG:
So, TTBOMK, Games Workshop began using HMG Paints Ltd. back in 1984-85 to supply their own brand of hobby paints. The original pots were round, soft plastic, with white vinyl lids, and had a generous internal volume of 20ml. In the early 90's, HMG were directed to change their bottle to the 17ml hexagonal design (probably for efficient warehousing and shipping purposes). At that same time, I believe Mike McVey and other GW staff contributed to reevaluating some of the color formulas. In the latter 1990's GW made the choice to drop HMG for a French paint company who introduced the (now notorious) Bolt Shell pots, made of hard plastic, with an even smaller liquid volume, and a penchant for allowing contents to dry out. Though matched to the previous HMG formulas, the new paints were also different in several regards. Since GW ended their contract with HMG, the line of original colors were renamed wherever copyright issues required, and the product line itself was renamed "Coat d'Arms". The "Coat d'Arms" line of paints use the same popular formulas as in 1985, and in the same 20ml pots, which provide a demonstrated history of longevity to the paints. Collectors regularly marvel at rediscovering long forgotten pots among their belongings, and often finding their contents as fresh as when first bought decades earlier.

What I do not know is the accuracy/reliability of the Dakka-dakka Paint Range Compatibility Chart, the consistency of the Coat d'Arms metallics compared to the original "Citadel Colour" product, or the "Coat d'Arms" Inks compared to the legendary original "Expert Set" Inks, which I understand was originally manufactured by another company.

So any first hand experience with "Coat d'Arms" vs. the original "Citadel Colour" range? Other useful resources? If this community contributes, this could be a very useful resource for other Oldhammer hobbyists.
 

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i've never used CDA before, but have been meaning to pick up a few.

i just want to say how genius that picture is, i've saved it and will be using it myself when i get a chance :grin:
 
Nice idea to create this thread :)

After not really having painted anything in around 6 years, I bought a lot of Coat d'Arms paints a few months ago. I think that the metallics are a bit too lumpy and the Warlock Purple doesn't cover well on a dark purple. But apart from that the paints are great :)

I think that the Goblin Green from Coat d'Arms is slightly more pale than the one from Citadel. And I think that Angel Green is slightly darker than Dark Angels Green.

However, bear in mind that I had a period of around 6 years with almost no painting and that most of my old paint (yup, the Bolt Shell pots) have dried out, so I can't test paint to compare - I can only compre the Coat d'Arms paints to how I remember the Citadel paints.
 
LilBroGrendel":4tuqi3po said:
Nice idea to create this thread :)

After not really having painted anything in around 6 years, I bought a lot of Coat d'Arms paints a few months ago. I think that the metallics are a bit too lumpy and the Warlock Purple doesn't cover well on a dark purple. But apart from that the paints are great :)

I think that the Goblin Green from Coat d'Arms is slightly more pale than the one from Citadel. And I think that Angel Green is slightly darker than Dark Angels Green.

However, bear in mind that I had a period of around 6 years with almost no painting and that most of my old paint (yup, the Bolt Shell pots) have dried out, so I can't test paint to compare - I can only compare the Coat d'Arms paints to how I remember the Citadel paints.
LOL Well it took me a while to sift through the testimonials like yours. It turns out, not ONLY are your observations in line with many others, but that was EXACTLY what the Citadel Colours paints were like back in the 1980's! :grin:

The differences that you remember from old Citadel Colour... those were formula developments from the 1990's. Coat d'Arms apparently truly IS the original formula from the earliest pots, with all it's qualities, good and bad.
 
Well I DID it. I bought a slew of CdA and Gave them their original Citadel Colour Labels.

Crazy, I know. ;)

Still have questions going forward. I have a few more colors to get, including the Inks and the Metallics. I'm expecting the metallics are the same as i remember, but have information that tells me not to expect the inks to be the same as what I used back in 1990.
 

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Galadrin

Member
I love CDA and use them almost exclusively, particular when it comes to 1990's Citadel lead. I also use the red 'Eavy Metal painting guide and find it effortless to go from McVey's paint suggestions (in the Citadel paint line) to CDA.

Regarding the paint pots, I really miss the old hex pots to be honest (I also miss GW's hex bases... Maybe there's a theme?), but your labels look great!

I can't say too much about the entire line of CDA inks (I've only used Green and Red washes so far, although I have been very happy with them), other than to point out that CDA has a few different categories. Inks (now called washes, I believe) are meant to mimic early GW washes. They are on the darker side (more pigment) and should perhaps properly be understood as inks. Note, Mike McVey used GW inks back in '93 to mix directly with regular paints (see pg 15 of The 'Eavy Metal Painting Guide). The effect was probably something like what we call a glaze today.

CDA also makes Super Washes and Super Shades. The former is meant to be used straight out of the pot without adjusting it or diluting it according to your needs. Just slap it on the model. The latter are meant to mimic Army Painter dip products (like Quickshade)—you apply it and can then manipulate it by removing excess shade from the raised parts of the model. They also make a fourth kind of "technical paint" (to match GW) called Brushscape, which is textured with silica sand.

But if you want oldschool, 'Eavy Metal style bold and bright colours, you can't go wrong with CDA's fantasy paints and regular washes. The ink/washes are darker than washes today, but I view that as a good thing as you can adjust them to your needs at the time. The "straight out of the pot" stuff is very limited in how much you can do with it.

As for "must-have" colours, I think the green wash is very useful (particularly for Orc and Goblin flesh) and chestnut ink as well (which is on the way in the post) for humans. The metal wash looks like it will provide that classic bright, blue-ish sheen for armour painted in Mithril Silver. I use the red wash mainly to make my Blood Angels have a red glazed look to their armour (my base is CDA's classic orangey Angel Red).
 
Drew Williams":387o8k7y said:
LOL Well it took me a while to sift through the testimonials like yours. It turns out, not ONLY are your observations in line with many others, but that was EXACTLY what the Citadel Colours paints were like back in the 1980's! :grin:

The differences that you remember from old Citadel Colour... those were formula developments from the 1990's. Coat d'Arms apparently truly IS the original formula from the earliest pots, with all it's qualities, good and bad.

Haha! I'm impressed with my own memory then :grin: By the way, I think I like the CdA Goblin Green better than the one I used earlier :)
 
Galadrin":tz77rsxp said:
I love CDA and use them almost exclusively, particular when it comes to 1990's Citadel lead. I also use the red 'Eavy Metal painting guide and find it effortless to go from McVey's paint suggestions (in the Citadel paint line) to CDA.

Regarding the paint pots, I really miss the old hex pots to be honest (I also miss GW's hex bases... Maybe there's a theme?), but your labels look great!

I can't say too much about the entire line of CDA inks (I've only used Green and Red washes so far, although I have been very happy with them), other than to point out that CDA has a few different categories. Inks (now called washes, I believe) are meant to mimic early GW washes. They are on the darker side (more pigment) and should perhaps properly be understood as inks. Note, Mike McVey used GW inks back in '93 to mix directly with regular paints (see pg 15 of The 'Eavy Metal Painting Guide). The effect was probably something like what we call a glaze today.

CDA also makes Super Washes and Super Shades. The former is meant to be used straight out of the pot without adjusting it or diluting it according to your needs. Just slap it on the model. The latter are meant to mimic Army Painter dip products (like Quickshade)—you apply it and can then manipulate it by removing excess shade from the raised parts of the model. They also make a fourth kind of "technical paint" (to match GW) called Brushscape, which is textured with silica sand.

But if you want oldschool, 'Eavy Metal style bold and bright colours, you can't go wrong with CDA's fantasy paints and regular washes. The ink/washes are darker than washes today, but I view that as a good thing as you can adjust them to your needs at the time. The "straight out of the pot" stuff is very limited in how much you can do with it.

As for "must-have" colours, I think the green wash is very useful (particularly for Orc and Goblin flesh) and chestnut ink as well (which is on the way in the post) for humans. The metal wash looks like it will provide that classic bright, blue-ish sheen for armour painted in Mithril Silver. I use the red wash mainly to make my Blood Angels have a red glazed look to their armour (my base is CDA's classic orangey Angel Red).

The theory that I picked up on, back when CC Inks were first introduced in the Expert Set, is that you should always want AS MUCH pigment as possible, and then dilute to your needs. The products that came out in the mid 90's, pre-diluted bulls#!+ for the little kiddies, really offended me. And I never looked at them again. Along with these other CDA colors, I also bought their "Flesh Wash" as a sample to see how it handled. And it very much reminded me of that nasty nonsense that GW's French paint manufacturer put into those bolt shell pots in the 90's. That Flesh Wash was the only CdA pot that I dumped down the drain. Now I'm almost tempted to just buy some Winsor Newton Drawing Inks (for all I know that was what was really in those Expert Set bottles), but if I do, I simply MUST transfer the ink colors into custom labelled CdA pots. ;)
 
Here is a better shot of my progress thus far.

I still must gather up the metallics and the Inks.

I'm also not yet satisfied that I've matched Snakebite Leather to my satisfaction. I think there is a truer match hidden in the Coat d'Arms WWII paints range. There seem to be a few like that; color equivalencies written up that might match 1990's or 2000's pots, but not true to 1980's colors. Goblin Green was one. The equivalency charts indicate it is the bright green one in the CdA Fantasy range, when the one that truly matches the original 1980's color is tucked away in the WWII line instead.

One of my problems is that nobody has yet to upload a complete paint swatch list from their original paints collection, and I've been left to piece it together in little bits from all over the web.
 

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Galadrin

Member
Drew Williams":3hzie55k said:
Here is a better shot of my progress thus far.

I still must gather up the metallics and the Inks.

I'm also not yet satisfied that I've matched Snakebite Leather to my satisfaction. I think there is a truer match hidden in the Coat d'Arms WWII paints range. There seem to be a few like that; color equivalencies written up that might match 1990's or 2000's pots, but not true to 1980's colors. Goblin Green was one. The equivalency charts indicate it is the bright green one in the CdA Fantasy range, when the one that truly matches the original 1980's color is tucked away in the WWII line instead.

One of my problems is that nobody has yet to upload a complete paint swatch list from their original paints collection, and I've been left to piece it together in little bits from all over the web.

Those look terrific. Do you have a link to the label stock you used for them? I might do the same!

As for Snakebite Leather, I am really happy with CdA 217 Leather Brown. I can't recall exactly how the old Snakebite Leather looked as my pots dried up long ago, but it is very close to how I remember Snakebite Leather—a bright, bold, yellowy-orange tan.
 

ardyer

Member
Drew Williams":1ntfs55q said:
Galadrin":1ntfs55q said:
I love CDA and use them almost exclusively, particular when it comes to 1990's Citadel lead. I also use the red 'Eavy Metal painting guide and find it effortless to go from McVey's paint suggestions (in the Citadel paint line) to CDA.

Regarding the paint pots, I really miss the old hex pots to be honest (I also miss GW's hex bases... Maybe there's a theme?), but your labels look great!

I can't say too much about the entire line of CDA inks (I've only used Green and Red washes so far, although I have been very happy with them), other than to point out that CDA has a few different categories. Inks (now called washes, I believe) are meant to mimic early GW washes. They are on the darker side (more pigment) and should perhaps properly be understood as inks. Note, Mike McVey used GW inks back in '93 to mix directly with regular paints (see pg 15 of The 'Eavy Metal Painting Guide). The effect was probably something like what we call a glaze today.

CDA also makes Super Washes and Super Shades. The former is meant to be used straight out of the pot without adjusting it or diluting it according to your needs. Just slap it on the model. The latter are meant to mimic Army Painter dip products (like Quickshade)—you apply it and can then manipulate it by removing excess shade from the raised parts of the model. They also make a fourth kind of "technical paint" (to match GW) called Brushscape, which is textured with silica sand.

But if you want oldschool, 'Eavy Metal style bold and bright colours, you can't go wrong with CDA's fantasy paints and regular washes. The ink/washes are darker than washes today, but I view that as a good thing as you can adjust them to your needs at the time. The "straight out of the pot" stuff is very limited in how much you can do with it.

As for "must-have" colours, I think the green wash is very useful (particularly for Orc and Goblin flesh) and chestnut ink as well (which is on the way in the post) for humans. The metal wash looks like it will provide that classic bright, blue-ish sheen for armour painted in Mithril Silver. I use the red wash mainly to make my Blood Angels have a red glazed look to their armour (my base is CDA's classic orangey Angel Red).

The theory that I picked up on, back when CC Inks were first introduced in the Expert Set, is that you should always want AS MUCH pigment as possible, and then dilute to your needs. The products that came out in the mid 90's, pre-diluted bulls#!+ for the little kiddies, really offended me. And I never looked at them again. Along with these other CDA colors, I also bought their "Flesh Wash" as a sample to see how it handled. And it very much reminded me of that nasty nonsense that GW's French paint manufacturer put into those bolt shell pots in the 90's. That Flesh Wash was the only CdA pot that I dumped down the drain. Now I'm almost tempted to just buy some Winsor Newton Drawing Inks (for all I know that was what was really in those Expert Set bottles), but if I do, I simply MUST transfer the ink colors into custom labelled CdA pots. ;)
Check out the Liquitex acrylic inks. I think they are much closer to what you're expecting. The Winsor & Newton inks have some different properties and work a little bit differently. JRN did an excellent run down on them in his pink space marine blog post.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Drew Williams":2oxfajs3 said:
One of my problems is that nobody has yet to upload a complete paint swatch list from their original paints collection, and I've been left to piece it together in little bits from all over the web.

What are you after exactly? Something to match the actual colours with - in which case you will be best off trawling ebay for 80s paints - photographs just won't show the true colour. If it's just the name list I'm sure there was a complete list in a late 80s or early 90s White Dwarf with printed colour swatches - but as they were cmyk print they won't be true to the actual paint - but I could try to dig that out if it's what you're after.

Anyone looking for spare pots, there are quite a few stockists:

http://www.ampulla.co.uk/Plastic-Screw- ... -131-1511/

Shcweb also do the same pots but are out of stock, and also have these familiar looking dropper bottles:
http://www.shcweb.co.uk/eshop/product.p ... 29&xSec=33

Nice work on the labels etc. Looks great and a really fun project.

HMG also make inks - it's possible GW were just selling those alongside HMGs acrylics - but I can't find someone who are relabeling them for retail.
 

paperclip

Member
Which of the WWII colors is a match for the original Goblin Green?

For those in the know, was the Goblin Green in the HMG-made hex pots the same as in the round pots? I have an HMG hex pot that I love dearly (and use sparingly) and notice that it's much more "toned down" than my later French bolter shell pot of Goblin Green.
 

Badaab

Member
paperclip":352vkd1j said:
Which of the WWII colors is a match for the original Goblin Green?

For those in the know, was the Goblin Green in the HMG-made hex pots the same as in the round pots? I have an HMG hex pot that I love dearly (and use sparingly) and notice that it's much more "toned down" than my later French bolter shell pot of Goblin Green.

If memory serves, the later (bolter shell bottle) edition of Goblin Green had less yellow than the hex bottle edition did, and was a little heavier on the pigment side. The bolter shell bottle version was closer to what would be called 'layer' paints (and now 'base' colors).
 
I think it would be nice if you could add what year each paint started to be produced. That would make things easier for anyone who wants to start "Archeopainting" :)
 

WARDUKE

Member
Hi Drew,

Do you happen to have a full set of the labels you created in a printable format?
Also, what printable labels did you use to print on?

I would love to emulate what you've done.

Thanks!
 

Tullaris

Member
A little late to this thread, but I thought this might be useful for people such as myself who's pots are running dry and need to replenish:

https://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/Article/view_CoatDArmsConversionChart.html

I'm fairly excited, as I'm awaiting a Coat D'arms shipment of roughly 20 paint pots, myself.
I'm returning to the paint board after a few years break, Gonna start a slaves to darkness slaanesh force :)

After some digging into my gw paints, I found so many of them had dried out. My 1994 or thereabouts shining gold hexagon still holds up however..... they don't make them like they used to...
 
Tullaris":2c0vr3dv said:
After some digging into my gw paints, I found so many of them had dried out. My 1994 or thereabouts shining gold hexagon still holds up however..... they don't make them like they used to...

Yeah, the same thing happened to me. I read that it's because of the pots with screw tops that they used from around 1998 to 20??. All my paints from that area had dried out while my old skool paints could still be used. I don't think that their new paints tend to dry out, however.
 
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