Cameras and some people lie!

clownshoe

Member
Hey guys, something has been bothering me recently - the whole miniature painting/photography/online thing. Something wasn't sitting right for me. Rather than repeat myself here if anyone is interested check out my blog post - http://barnfindlancashire.blogspot.co.u ... error.html
Not a plug, i am just lazy. Basically its about photoshopping images - cheating, painting etc. I like to think i have it sussed now - What do you guys think?
 

Jonas

Member
I generally use GIMP (Free Photoshop alternative), but I never go in a directly edit the photos like in your examples. What I do, however, is to use a quickfilter to auto adjust the levels of colour balance and such, light/dark. It usually doesn't alter anything on my painting, but it gives a quick boost to some of the colours if the light has not been set up too well.

I know much more effective filters can be used and other programs can do a better job. But to me this is as far as I go. I want to present what I have painted and not what I have edited in Photoshop and I still feel that what I post represent my skills with a brush and not with a computer.

Some Photoshopping can go in and drastically alter your blending and brushwork to look flawless and I really think it is more a matter of extensive use of filters and not really actual editing by painting with Photoshop, but clearly it can be done if you want to change colours or other more extreme makeover.

I am not really against editing your pictures, after all anyone can do what they want with their miniatures and present them like they want. The only problems I see is when people sell miniatures and the buyer might not get what he thinks or photoshop editing too much on miniature pictures for contents or such.

:grin:
 

Harry

Moderator
I don't have enough time for developing my painting skills ... never mind finding the time to develop my computer skills to the point where I can cheat. :grin:


EDIT: or obviously I would. :twisted:
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
The worst is when someone colours in plastic bitz green to make it look like they sculpted it themselves out of greenstuff, or takes a 3d render, paints it in photoshop and then displays it as if it is an actual model.

To be honest I prefered it when all we had to look at was:

citcomp1045-01.jpg


Might not be any more accurate, but at least it was trying to be honest.
 

Skarsnik

Member
clownshoe":1p16s1q9 said:
Hey guys, something has been bothering me recently - the whole miniature painting/photography/online thing. Something wasn't sitting right for me. Rather than repeat myself here if anyone is interested check out my blog post - http://barnfindlancashire.blogspot.co.u ... error.html
Not a plug, i am just lazy. Basically its about photoshopping images - cheating, painting etc. I like to think i have it sussed now - What do you guys think?

I'm in a position of having limited painting skills, but I'm happy to post pictures of my work, warts and all.

However, having spent the last 12 years attending Gamesday Uk and seeing Golden Demon entries in the flesh, I can tell you that there are lots of painters out there who really do produce the stunning paint jobs you see in pictures. Often the miniatures are even more impressive in the flesh than they are in photographs.

I don't doubt that there are people out there who do the things you have talked about to a greater or lesser extent. However, I suspect that they are few and far between, and most of the pictures you see are of miniatures painted by genuinely talented people. For an example close to home, take a look at some of the stuff by stone cold lead in the showroom. His paintjobs are truly remarkable, and way beyond anything I could ever hope to achieve, but I have no doubt that all of his photos are entirely genuine and haven't been doctored in any way.
 

Jonas

Member
For buying miniatures I prefer a picture of the actual model with a black wash on it. If there is a painted example it is good too, but then I would like both things.

The worst thing for buying is no picture at all and second worst thing is very badly painted examples or very small pictures.
 

phreedh

Member
I think it's pretty common on sites such as CMON, but probably not in the top tier. I'm sure the worst vote whores do it though, regardless of their painting skill. You know the guys who want to brag in front of their game store buddies how amazing scores their stuff got on CMON.

This got me a bit interested. I'm not a complete hack when it comes to Photoshop, but no professional. I'll have a go at retouching a miniature photo of my own.

And Jonas: Sometimes those poorly painted ones lead to pleasant surprises! I still remember my first hesistant purchase from Mega Miniatures. =D
 

Jonas

Member
It is true. But in the past, things like the terrible paintjobs of Asgard miniatures, on the Alternative Armies page, really held people back from buying. But seing how they could look with proper paintjobs could have sold many more miniatures.

Now they have a few images of great painted miniatures and no images of the rest. Which is probably a better way to go than the previous

Personally I am not held back from buying things that look terrible though :lol: But I guess that is just me.
 
At the moment, all of my mini pic's have been taken with my phone. I just find some good light, close up & shoot, with all their imperfections. I'm not a pro painter by any stretch of the imagination.....I'm learning, and I don't see the point trying to kid myself or anyone else that I am. The only way I'll improve as a painter is by being up front & honest about my painting ability. Getting critiques about my paint jobs is something that I want, so that I can improve.

A simple little trick that I see quite often is when they compose the shot so that the mini takes up a small part of the frame. If you have to squint to see the mini in the photo then I'm sorry, it's obvious that your trying to con your audience. Most minis look good at a distance, but I think their just deluding themselves.
 

Vyper

Member
Photographing my models has been an eye-opening experience for me. I agree with your post entirely that minis that look great (or at least good enough) when viewed normally tend to turn up all sorts of flaws when photographed and enlarged. There have been a fair few times where I've repeatedly re-touched a model after noticing mistakes made after looking at a photo.

With regards photo-manipulation, I've only edited one picture so far, and that's because a small, errant piece of red fluff got stuck on a model and stood out like a sore thumb in the pictures I took of the unit he was in. I 'Shopped out the fluff as it was quicker than re-shooting the pics.
 

ardyer

Member
I can verify that people do "cheat" with their pictures. But I can also verify that plenty of these models look way better in person than online. Even GWs own models. The Heavy Metal painter who did the current plastic wizard let me hold the model at the games day US right after the kit was released. I had not been impressed with the White Dwarf photos, but seeing it in real life was amazing.

But on the other side, I spoke with a top level painter who orgainzed an eBay sale about a decade ago that involved lots of top level painters from all over the world because I was thinking about doing the same thing. This person had the painters take the photos themselves, but send the models to the organizer to be shipped to the purchaser. The two warnings I recieved were 1) you'd be suprised at how poorly many of these models are packaged, and 2) it was scary how much photoshopping had been done by some of the painters.
 

Orlygg

Member
A fascinating discussion.

I have to concur with what others have said about painted miniatures looking better via the eye rather than camera. Some of the skills I have seen displays at WW, Salute a beyond have been extremely inspiring and result in you thinking 'how on earth did they achieve that?'

The camera can lie though, and has always done. Just look at many of the miniatures that Phil Lewis photographed in the 1980s and compair the images with the actual models now. The old photographs really improve things. Personally, I use a a basic iphone camera, natural daylight and scenery to get the most out of my models. Enlarging, altering or cropping things just ruins the look of the model for me and just highlights the imperfections.
 

Naagruz

Member
It's a real balance.

While there are definitely cases of use or overuse of dramatic lighting & photo cleanup in some pics to enhance a minis appearance beyond reality, I think it can be far more difficult to get an actual representation of what you did.

Wrong camera, wrong light, wrong settings & you get pics like Chico. True masterclass works of art rendered all blurryish...kind of like Van Gogh! ;)
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Oh, I forgot. I did this photoshop tattoo on a John Blanche cursed ettin a while ago:

coalition_ettin_dick_clegge.jpg


and the John Blanche original here, from Steve Buddles blog
ettin.jpg


it's a bit rushed and crude, just to get the idea of using party political colours to make the giant a comment on the coalition government.Never claimed it was anything but a photoshop jobby tho, but it's quite fun to do, especially messing wih JBs work, which is never going to happen in real life.

But when I've done photoshopping stuff for miniatures companies, generally it's just a bit of colour correction due to lighting (natural light is great, but it changes all the time - not good for series) and preserving the original paint-job is the main point.
 
Vyper":3ozffbz3 said:
Photographing my models has been an eye-opening experience for me. I agree with your post entirely that minis that look great (or at least good enough) when viewed normally tend to turn up all sorts of flaws when photographed and enlarged. There have been a fair few times where I've repeatedly re-touched a model after noticing mistakes made after looking at a photo.

With regards photo-manipulation, I've only edited one picture so far, and that's because a small, errant piece of red fluff got stuck on a model and stood out like a sore thumb in the pictures I took of the unit he was in. I 'Shopped out the fluff as it was quicker than re-shooting the pics.

Oh yes...that miniature that looks brilliant to your naked eye is actually a cock eyed, sloppy looking buffoon when using macro image :lol:
I usually paint a mini, take a photo of it, photobucket it and post it here and then notice that one pupil is actually on that chap's cheek as well as his eye (or the like)

I'll crop an image, but that's about the extent of my wizardry as I have no idea on how to photoshop or alter images.
 

Vyper

Member
Count Von Bruno":1zmvfv9o said:
I usually paint a mini, take a photo of it, photobucket it and post it here and then notice that one pupil is actually on that chap's cheek as well as his eye (or the like)

Paint model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model *repeat to fade*
 

Con-fusion

Member
Vyper":2bccf39b said:
Paint model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model, photograph model, see the picture and notice a mistake, put more paint on model *repeat to fade*

:lol:

So true. So true.

The most I do it turn on the daylight filter on my camera. I take so many of my pictures in crappy lighting at night when the kids are asleep that this has become a necessity to get a halfway decent photo. I also use photobucket's tools to crop and resize photos. I've never really thought about heavily editing my pictures with photoshop. That seems to defeat the purpose of sharing and soliciting constructive feedback.
 

Blue in VT

Moderator
here is a breakdown of my photo set up and process

1. I have a blue-white gradient printed out on some 11x17in cardstock. It is blue tacked to the top of an old file cabinet...If you need one I have it uploaded to photobucket here: http://i91.photobuck...k/Backdrop2.jpg

2. I have two normal desk lamp fixtures (I got mine at a salvation army store for less than $5 total) that are equipped with 30watt Compact Fluorescent Daylight Bulbs (the Corkscrew kind). I got mine from my local Hardware super store...Home Depot or Lowes...can't remember which...they were like $3 each. These are angled at the subject from slightly above and from 45 degrees to either side.

3. I have a third desk lamp with a longer tube...like this one



It has a long bulb like this:



This means the light is coming from a broader area and therefore cuts down on shadows. This lamp I hold above the camera when I'm taking a picture. In this arrangement the light is coming from basically the same place as the camera is taking the picture from...again this cuts down on shadows.

4. My camera is mounted on a tripod...again decent ones can be found cheap at Garage sales etc.

A picture of the complete "set-up"



5. Use the cameras timer to take your picture...you know the one where you press the button and run into a family photo...yeah that one....that way you aren't shaking the camera at all when you release the shutter. Alternatively get a remote release...so you don't have to use the timer.

Also don't forget to use the Macro setting for close up shots....which all miniature photography is.

6. In Photoshop I crop the image and adjust the levels a little bit...I also reduce the width of the image to about 200pixels per figure...so 4 figures at once would be 800 pixels wide. Too big of a photos shows off all your flaws...too small and you can't see any detail. I then use the sharpen filter to bring out the crispness in the model that can get lost in a stock photo. Save the files with a different name so you have your edited copy and the original both saved.

here are a few example shots to show you what a raw image looks like and one that has been processed.

Here is a raw photo:



Here is the cropped shot:



Here it is after the levels have been adjusted...basically correcting the white balance...ie not cheating... :razz: :



And here is the Sharpened Final Image:



I think the difference between the last two photos is subtle but makes a HUGE difference in the quality of the image. Just a note though...don't sharpen too much as it will make your photo grainy...too much of a good thing can go bad!

Cheers,

Blue
 
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