Karl Franz and the Empire during 3rd edition

How was Emperor Karl Franz portrayed in Warhammer during its third edition? I've heard he didn't become a mighty hero before 4th/5th editions, with their simplified background. And how was the Empire portrayed?
 

ardyer

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

In "empire in flames," he was a weak emperor, secretly hiding mutations and was assassinated. All-in-all, not good ;)
 

Orlygg

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

He was found to be a doppleganger if I remember correctly. All in all, the Old School Empire was a much better realised place than anything that came later. I always loved the fact that the majority of its citizens were unaware of the doom that waited for them in the north, nor were they aware of the skaven's hideous underempire slowly gnawing away at their foundations.

Fantastic stuff really.
 

Chico

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

What I don't like about 3rd Ed Empire is that they play the German theme to much. I want to be able to pronounce my unit names heh. As for Mr Karl he came in 4th ed as a proper Herohammer hehe
 

Asslessman

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

It's true the bretonnian names are FAR more easy to pronounce (no bias AT ALL) :roll:

What you say Orlygg is very true, with all the WHFRP scenarios and the John blanche drawings, the empire really was a creepy place back then with the menaces you mention (just look at the JOhn blanche drawing of an imperial city, can't find it now). This reflects in its great characters too. I guess this comes from the fact that both Roleplay and battle games were developped tightly together...
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Never really thought of the WFRP world as being the same place as the WFB one. Nor Bloodbowl. More like parallel universes of each other. Hmm. Ponders.
 

Asslessman

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Zhu Bajie":1oasdbk0 said:
Never really thought of the WFRP world as being the same place as the WFB one. Nor Bloodbowl. More like parallel universes of each other. Hmm. Ponders.

Well, putting the 3rd ed rulebook and the roleplay rule book next to each other, there is something very similar in the atmosphere. Lots of models and drawings link these 2 books. I agree they're both looking at the same thing through different perspectives. after that it was 2 completely different worlds.
 

Blue in VT

Moderator
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Having never Played WFRP...and therefore never absorbed all the "campaigns" for that system....what do you all recommend as good information sources for the Empire from the Oldhammer times?

Cheers,

Blue
 

Orlygg

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

The Enemy Within (the first supplement) has quite a a bit of good stuff about the Empire. A potted history if you like. Death on the Reik expands this with a detailed look at the commercial world of the Empire. The fact its largely unexplored forest, pocked with cities, towns and villages, connected by waterways large and small. Power Behind the Throne and Warhammer City explore Middenheim in great detail too. The art and character sketches in these books give you a huge amount of visual inspiration, by a wide variety of artists. I think the 'Powers that were' have gone on the record to state that they was a great deal of cross over between WFB and WFRP, and a little cross over with RT. I agree with Zhu about Bloodbowl, though it shared many of the names and themes of Warhammer, it replaced the darkness and doom with light hearted jokes and clearly exists in a less serious version of the Old World.
 

Blue in VT

Moderator
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

thanks James...I'll see if I can track some copies of those down. I really need some inspiration for my long awaited empire campaign...

Cheers,

Blue
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Still musing. Forenronds Last Stand carried over none of the dark, brooding atmosphere of the Enemy Within, and the background text is rather silly. Tonally WFB3 and WFRP are quite different.

Also worth noting that WFRP was published during WFB2 - before Ravening Hordes even.
 

Erny

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Karl Franz was not the doppleganger, that was someone else but I woin't give spoilers here.

The empire army of third is built heavily on top of the deatils in TEW campaign, they are certainly the same world as far as I'm concerned.
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Erny":ip2mzy39 said:
Karl Franz was not the doppleganger, that was someone else but I woin't give spoilers here.

The empire army of third is built heavily on top of the deatils in TEW campaign, they are certainly the same world as far as I'm concerned.

Can you point to any textual links? I've always considered WFRP and WFB very different beasts in terms of atmosphere, mood and general mojo, would be good to have some pointers.
 

ardyer

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Zhu Bajie":2tlltf2q said:
Erny":2tlltf2q said:
Karl Franz was not the doppleganger, that was someone else but I woin't give spoilers here.

The empire army of third is built heavily on top of the deatils in TEW campaign, they are certainly the same world as far as I'm concerned.

Can you point to any textual links? I've always considered WFRP and WFB very different beasts in terms of atmosphere, mood and general mojo, would be good to have some pointers.

I suspect it is one of those things where they overlap when they do and don't overlap when they don't (clear as mud, right?). I know the Gotrek and Felix stuff co-existed between the two, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
 

Asslessman

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Zhu Bajie":1nzmud2b said:
Erny":1nzmud2b said:
Karl Franz was not the doppleganger, that was someone else but I woin't give spoilers here.

The empire army of third is built heavily on top of the deatils in TEW campaign, they are certainly the same world as far as I'm concerned.

Can you point to any textual links? I've always considered WFRP and WFB very different beasts in terms of atmosphere, mood and general mojo, would be good to have some pointers.

After second thoughts (and reading ^^) from a straight view, I don't see the atmosphere as linked as I I used to. The art is really close and shared (plenty of drawings which are the same in both books), but I believe I built a link between 3rd and WHRP because I discovered at the same time... ^^
This bias also made me think that the "sorcery" adventure books had the same vibe (mainly due to JB's drawings) but now I only see common inspirations more than common background.


EDIT :
Oh and sorry Karak for helping derailing your thread but Empire looks like this and only like this :

tumblr_m4xih74yDC1qhslato1_500.jpg
 

Zhu Bajie

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Asslessman":34k5uqgk said:
Zhu Bajie":34k5uqgk said:
Erny":34k5uqgk said:
Karl Franz was not the doppleganger, that was someone else but I woin't give spoilers here.

The empire army of third is built heavily on top of the deatils in TEW campaign, they are certainly the same world as far as I'm concerned.

Can you point to any textual links? I've always considered WFRP and WFB very different beasts in terms of atmosphere, mood and general mojo, would be good to have some pointers.

After second thoughts (and reading ^^) from a straight view, I don't see the atmosphere as linked as I I used to. The art is really close and shared (plenty of drawings which are the same in both books), but I believe I built a link between 3rd and WHRP because I discovered at the same time... ^^
This bias also made me think that the "sorcery" adventure books had the same vibe (mainly due to JB's drawings) but now I only see common inspirations more than common background.


EDIT :
Oh and sorry Karak for helping derailing your thread but Empire looks like this and only like this :

tumblr_m4xih74yDC1qhslato1_500.jpg

That's Khare - Cityport of Traps! from Fighting Fantasy :) Would make a great cover for an alternate WFRP.

I think my biases come from playng D&D and AD&D - both presented very differently and with quite different feels, so I'm kind of used to quite different things carrying the same name. I don't want to talk about the art-direction of WFB3 - I've nothing positive to say about it, the book is a mess! Lot's of great pictures tho, just a shame about their positioning in the text.

If you want a gamebook that definitely has the same vibe as WFRP, Stephen Hand (Chainsaw Warrior fame) Fighting Fantasy book Dead of Night is very warhammer - river-barges, chaos mutants, witch hunters, Martin McKenna drawings. Fantastic!

ardyer":34k5uqgk said:
I know the Gotrek and Felix stuff co-existed between the two, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
They appeared in Advanced Heroquest scenario in WD, did they also cross into WFB?

Yes also apologies to Karak for rambling on. I think Orlygg more than adequately answered your original question!
 

Asslessman

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Zhu Bajie":2dozmdgc said:
That's Khare - Cityport of Traps! from Fighting Fantasy :) Would make a great cover for an alternate WFRP.

:o :?

OK so now you know I'm confusing everything so I'll let you have your thread back and stop polluting it... :roll:
 

ardyer

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Zhu Bajie":24jneq2a said:
ardyer":24jneq2a said:
I know the Gotrek and Felix stuff co-existed between the two, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
They appeared in Advanced Heroquest scenario in WD, did they also cross into WFB?

They've crossed over into all three. In fact the cover of WFRP 1st ed. Was used as the "picture" of Gotrek at one point.
 

Erny

Member
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Zhu Bajie":36tq7kfn said:
Erny":36tq7kfn said:
Karl Franz was not the doppleganger, that was someone else but I woin't give spoilers here.

The empire army of third is built heavily on top of the deatils in TEW campaign, they are certainly the same world as far as I'm concerned.

Can you point to any textual links? I've always considered WFRP and WFB very different beasts in terms of atmosphere, mood and general mojo, would be good to have some pointers.


Other than sharing the same maps, names of cities and general late medieval, early Renaissance HRE look I guess the links are few and far between. The magic system is the same (both adapted from 2nd) and obviously the tech level is the same. There is also the section in WHFRP about converting the stats of your characters to use in WHFB, presumably not to have them jump through a dimensional portal and arrive in the parallel universe of the battle game where all looks the same but is just apparently different. The fluff of third is, as I like it thin on the ground, indeed most of the fluff from my third ed games came straight out of TEW.
Get yourself a copy of TEW. A good section is devoted to the Army of the empire, some of the names of units are repeated in what passes for fluff written underneath the unit entries in WHA. High helms, Reiksguard, Knights Panther. The use of Tielian mercenary crossbows is discussed in both along with standing armies of halberdiers . And haflings as baggage guards. I 'm not certain but I think Nuln is mentioned for its black powder associations in both.

What I don't see is any glaring inconsistency to suggest the two are different worlds.

As to Felix and Gotrek, the stories first appeared while 3rd ed WHFB and 1st Ed WHFRP were about. I don't remember for certain if any stats appeared for them for either of these systems, I think it was 4th and 2nd respectively. AHQ did indeed have them make an appearance.

Some of the Russ Nicholson pictures in AFF particularly the additional books would not look out of place in WHFRP. Hogs head's the dying of the light and realms of sorcery use very similar illustrations by Nicholson.
 
Re: Karl Franz during 3rd edition

Thank you all for highlighting the background scene for the Empire and its Emperor back in 3rd edition. That Blanche painting is really nice, as was most of his work back then. I'd like a retro loop from him with lots of well-crafted paintings, albeit with his current style.

For someone with author ambitions it is of some interest to watch a backstory's different incarnations. Especially so with WHFB, which I'm familiar with since 6th edition. On to Dwarfs...
 
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